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Thank you Paul for visiting us on our humble forum! I absolutely love your work and I am sure our good friend Mark Lewis would approve as well if he ever decided to keep up with technology and get himself a DVD player!

As for you Sir Lewis, I am quite amazed that you held off so long in making a comment regarding the Classic Force! I am no Psychic (as we have established so far) but for some reason it would have been easy to foresee that you would take great pleasure performing this force compared to other card forces and sleights! And I bet you your bloody good at it as well!

mark lewis wrote:I haven't seen this DVD so I cannot comment one way or the other about it.

click on the following link to see a preview of this DVD: http://www.penguinmagic.com/europe/product.php?ID=929

Note:
Once you link to the site click one of the four little boxes under the “WATCH MOVIE” title on the right hand side.

If you have a fast Internet connection where you are using broadband I would suggest to click on one of the two top boxes (but for some reason I do not think you have a fast connection so in that case click on the bottom two and you will be safe).

Once you have seen this preview I’d be curious to hear your thoughts. Regarding Paul Green’s technique using the classic force and his mischievous interaction with the spectators (which I am sure you will wholly approve of).

mark lewis wrote:However mention of the classic force tempts me to yap on and on about it. I shall try to control this compulsion and for all I know the things I want to say may well be covered by Mr Green on his tape anyway.

There is no need to hold back Mark. Your insight into these things is priceless to this forum and always highly enjoyable.

mark lewis wrote:And as for performers that use the pass to get the card into position they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

Your measures are a little extreme but I guess you will then be able to rest assure that they will never practice such blasphemy again and others will be deterred from daring to try it.

mark lewis wrote:No. I am MARK LEWIS and whatever I say on these matters must be gospel. Shuffling before the force looks much better and the method for doing so is explained in the Royal Road to Card Magic

(which was half written by an Australian if my memory serves me correctly).

mark lewis wrote:I also recommend placing the card above the break rather than below it.

It’s exactly the way Paul Green likes to do it.

mark lewis wrote: With regard to excessive forcing this is indeed dangerous procedure as is forcing a card on someone and naming it saying something like "you won't forget that 6 of spades will you?"... However I confess that I do not practice what I preach here and I recommend that you do as I say not what I do.

Now, why doesn’t it surprise me that you can’t resist from doing that !

Once again Mark, thanks for that! That was a very entertaining and enlightening post!

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Costas, can you also add something about the DVD in terms of what Mark has raised. please do it quickly because agreeing with him is making me a little edgy...

Don't be too concerned Bobby, it's not coming from you! I think Sir Lewis has Hypnotized everybody on this forum into thinking that he is a very knowledgable and loveable kind of guy !

mark lewis wrote:
With regard to excessive forcing this is indeed dangerous procedure as is forcing a card on someone and naming it saying something like "you won't forget that 6 of spades will you?"... However I confess that I do not practice what I preach here and I recommend that you do as I say not what I do.

Costas wrote: Now, why doesn’t it surprise me that you can’t resist from doing that !

nominating the forced card as it is forced is can be a killer move "IF" your force is perfect, your patter is perfect, your handling is smooth as silk... you have shuffled clearly and cleanly in front of the spec. it can add some comedy and additional bewilderment to a force... but everything else needs to be perfect if you are going to go that way, otherwise best not to try it.

occassionally you see people handling cards for a crowd, and when they are doing key build up moves like cuts and shuffles, the specs attention strays. that is a disaster! presentation is so key, you dont want to have to remind people after you force a card "i did shuffle these by the way..." the specs need to be watching your every move. presentation, your personality, sense of humour etc will draw people to watch your every move. then if you have done everything perfectly, and just after forcing a card you say "you won't forget that 6 of spades will you?" it can be a real killer. but ONLY if everything else is perfect. otherwise dont try it.

Even if everything IS perfect it probably shouldn't be done. It is very bad technique indeed. I always feel guilty every time I do it. However I notice that Paul Green does something similar on that little Penguin clip so at least I know I am not the only sinner.

However I do believe that we are both sinning because Jean Hugard tut-tutted mightily against this procedure although I cannot remember in which book the tut-tutting took place.

Every time I do it I get a vision of stuffy old Hugard staring down at me from the sky looking very displeased about the matter. If future I shall tell him to go and look at Paul Green instead and leave me alone

Hey, we all need a scapegoat!

The mortal sin you speak of is mentioned in “The Royal Road to Card Magic” something is also mentioned in “Expert Card Technique” but more along the lines of using the force as a straight out prediction (the statement in this book is a little ambiguous for me even though it was written by a fellow Australian )

From what I noticed on the video, after executing a Classic Force, Paul Green tends to give his spectator an explanation for how he was able to tell what card was chosen. Even though this explanation is just as impossible as the effect itself, his spectators nonetheless seem to take this reasoning into consideration. This adds even more humour to the presentation while also enabling Green to persuade his spectators to follow the yellow brick road to the land of nowhere !

Regardless of what some purists may think regarding the repeated use of the Classic Force in Paul Green’s Excessive Force routine; it was a wonderful demonstration of the true power of this force (when executed flawlessly) and I believe such a display was a necessary inclusion with in an instructional video that had the primary objective of teaching this tool. On the other hand, as I never use any force more than once in a routine, I am not about to go out with my amateur card skills and use this force so relentlessly (not at least until I get 40 years experience under my belt, sold thousands of Svengali decks to the undeserving public and have developed a somewhat justified ego !) So for now I do not have the urgent need to hide from Mr Hugard’s wrath!

i read an interesting story about Slydini, he often said that his skill was to shift the audience's opinion regarding "when" the magic was done. for example, a simple vanish was never simple for him, he would suggest putting the item to be "vanished" into an envelope, then set the envelope on fire. this same strategy is often true of successful card forces. when you change the moment when the spec thinks the magic was done, your magic can be all the more amazing.

in reference to nominating the forced card... if you have not already done so, go to Mark Lewis' web site, sift through pages of him saying how good he is, and find the video presentation of his svengali routine... then decide if you think there can be times when nominating the forced card is appropriate... i think there can be... it drives the spec "crazy" w confusion and bewilderment...

The svengali deck is different. The force I use with that is not the classic force. Since the cards are spread in a long overlapping row and the spectator can really take any card I don't think Hugard would make a fuss.

Mind you the very procedure he makes a fuss about is one which he himself describes in the Royal Road to Card Magic unless it was Braue that did it when Hugard wasn't looking. It is called Top Change Byplay and is the trick which makes me feel guilty all the time. However to be fair on Hugard and Braue they only describe forcing the card twice whereas I in my great foolishness do it 3 times.

Just like Paul Green I offer an explanation for the fact that I know the card. I tell them that I saw a reflection of the card in their thumbnail. Some daft people actually believe me when I say that and it does take the heat off the force. I even see them look at their thumbnail looking a bit bemused over the matter.

With regard to breaking rules I am in full agreement with Faucett Ross who said that no rule is cast in tablets of stone and sometimes you can indeed break them. However I think it is important to know what the rule is in the first place.

I may as well continue with my handling of that trick. I force the card and then announce it with the "you won't forget that 6 of spades" line. Incidentally the line comes from Max Malini. After they have expressed their initial amusement and before their brains start to work out that you must have forced the card I offer the thumbnail explanation. Then I tell them to take another card and I promise that I won't look in their thumbnail again. Of course I force the card again and influence Hugard to appear tut-tutting from the sky. I don't think he knows that I got the dumb trick from HIS book.

After the same card appears I then give them ANOTHER explanation for the matter. I tell them that the card is a very special one and never likes to be in the middle but always likes to appear at the top. I then shuffle the cards and run an extra one so that the card is second from the top. I do a DL and drop the card on the floor making some inane remark about it being a floor show. I suspect this procedure gives them the out that I might be using more than one identical card which further disguises the force.

The punter puts his or her foot on the card. Yes. You know what is coming. You force the card again. I usually use another person for the force this time to shut old Hugard up. After all the first person may start getting a little suspicious by now. When the card appears for the third time there are great yelps of joy and when the floored card is turned over there is great rejoicing by everyone except Jean Hugard.

Do the trick by all means but bear in mind that it is a dangerous way of doing things and stuffy old Hugard was correct in his assessment of the weakness of the procedure.

That sounds like a great routine Mr Lewis and I am sure Mr Hugard would be proud of you !

Do you think you like executing the Classic Force repeatedly and directly because you believe it will heighten the effect you are presenting at the time or more out personal gratification, which is served by testing your limits somwhat?

I strongly believe at times that many magicians like to push their limits regardless of the end effect that will be achieved but in order to satisfy their own need as a skilled performer. Isn’t this one of the reasons some magicians avoid using gimmicks including the ID, even though it obviously packs one of the most devastating blows to a spectator. I have found myself testing my limits unnecessarily but never with the Classic Force as I do not attain the skill level to pull it off! So for now I adhere to Mr Hugard’s teachings! But as my skill level grows I may adhere to the other philosophy of how power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely !

costas wrote:I strongly believe at times that many magicians like to push their limits regardless of the end effect that will be achieved but in order to satisfy their own need as a skilled performer. Isn’t this one of the reasons some magicians avoid using gimmicks including the ID, even though it obviously packs one of the most devastating blows to a spectator.

That comment sums up the problem with a lot of non proffesional performers...Myself included!
We forget that when we perform a trick to a layman, he or she (hopefully) has no idea of the method we are using.... I really believe that if we took a step back and realised that hopefully 99% of the time we are performing to people in the real world, they have no idea what methods we are using...

To a layman a classic force (or any other for that matter) is already getting you as a performer one step ahead of them and if you wish to stay one step ahead then keep doing it, regardless of what you might hear from a forum full of people who are already one step ahead of you even if it is only in what they think a performance should be!

Personally I think a classic force when presented properly is one of the greatest sleights you can do.... if you can repeat it whilst showing the deck to be normal then keep doing it... hey if you miss you can always control the card anyway so what have you got to lose?

I don't give a stuff about "testing my limits". I don't repeatedly force a card for that reason. I do it because it provokes a reaction even though I do believe it can have a tendency to expose the method if you are not very skilled at handling the situation.

To me methods are only incidentals. They are simply the tools that you need to do the job. I will just as happily use a DF card as I will a second deal if the double face card brings me the required result. If a method requires sleight of hand then I will use it. If it doesn't I won't.

Mark Lewis wrote: If a method requires sleight of hand then I will use it. If it doesn't I won't.

can you please clarify what you mean there??? are you talking card forces only or are you saying you would never even use an ID???

sorry, it's early morning and i am running a little slow here... plus i have most of my attention on the Yankees' game and we are getting "shelled".

Of course I would use an ID. Or a brainwave deck. Or indeed any kind of trick cards. Not the svengali deck of course because I am bloody sick of the sight of them.

I shall try again because it appears that I have been misunderstood. I believe it is the effect that counts rather than the method. I am not hung up on methods. To me they are merely a means to an end.

I am totally ruthless over methods. I will use prearrangement, DF cards, a subtlety, a mathematical principle or if the trick requires it I will use sleight of hand. It matters not a whit to me. I will do what is necessary to achieve the audience reaction.

I am not against sleight of hand. Indeed I am very skilled at it. However I recognised a long time ago that it is merely a method for obtaining an objective. It is not the objective itself. Young magicians seem to focus on how clever they can manipulate things rather than on what effect the manipulation has on the EFFECT. It is the EFFECT that counts not the method to gain that effect.

However sometimes the best method to gain the effect actually is sleight of hand. If this is the case then it is the method I use. However if I can gain an equal or better effect by not using sleight of hand this is the route I will go.

With regard to forcing cards the classic force is probably the best method extant although it should be said that there are other equally risky forces that actually imply an even greater freedom of choice. Thus it is possible to fan a deck of card in front of someone and force a card that is merely thought of and it is also possible to spread a deck of cards in front of someone in an overlapping row on the table and psychologically position the selected card to be chosen. You hold a break over the card and toss the deck out on the table. Johnny Paul made extensive use of this.

I personally have invented a method of spreading the cards in a long row on the table FACE UPWARDS and asking a person to think of one. I instantly know what it is and reveal it later in some surprising way. This however is not technically a force because I have no idea what card they are going to think of until they actually think of it.

I cannot explain how to do it because you will all think I am nuts. It is almost a psychic thing but not quite.

But back to forcing. I think the classic force is for all practical purposes the best force to use. It does take a certain audacity but if you do not possess a good bit of audacity and bluff then you don't really deserve to be called a magician.

I am always amused at how the hot shot sleight of hand artists are usually very bad at 3 basic sleights. Palming, classic forcing and the top change. This is because all the 3 moves require a certain amount of sang-froid and daring. Introverted sleight of hand finger flingers aren't too much on sang-froid and daring I am afraid.

the I.D is without doubt my favorite gaffed deck of cards. it enables me (as part of my presentation) to pretend i am psychic...

the forcing of a card is such a powerful tool, and can be integrated in so many different ways. i tend to agree the force used is less important than the presentation of it.

reading Mark's post:

Mark Lewis wrote: I am always amused at how the hot shot sleight of hand artists are usually very bad at 3 basic sleights. Palming, classic forcing and the top change. This is because all the 3 moves require a certain amount of sang-froid and daring. Introverted sleight of hand finger flingers aren't too much on sang-froid and daring I am afraid.

i couldn't help but think about the "classic flamenco guitarist" stereotype... 100% technique + 0% personality = ZZZzzz

the entertainment industry is full of examples, people who are not necessarily the best singer in the world but sell millions of CD's (that's the new way we listen to music Mark) because of personality and presentation. heaven help us if we forget that Magic is not jjust art, it is all about entertainment!

Mark Lewis wrote: I personally have invented a method of spreading the cards in a long row on the table FACE UPWARDS and asking a person to think of one. I instantly know what it is and reveal it later in some surprising way. This however is not technically a force because I have no idea what card they are going to think of until they actually think of it.

hang on a minute... you cant state something like that... and just leave it!!!

Personality and presentation is a very valuable characteristic in any branch of the entertainment industry but is perhaps less necessary for musicians since the music itself can often get them through without. Desirable but not earth shakingly essential.

However for a magician it is different. Showmanship and presentation is not merely desirable it is part and parcel of a magician's trade. It is in and of itself a very ESSENTIAL part of being a magician. Without it you merely have an empty shell. It is certainly more important than the latest sleight.

The REAL skill in being a performer are the mental aspects. The technical side of manipulation and handling although important do take secondary place when compared to things like developing a character and presenting that character in an amusing, dramatic or otherwise interesting way. Then of course you have the psychological side of things which can be easily overlooked. You have to learn to sum up your audience and vary your procedure according to what sort of people they are and what sort of reaction they have to you.

You also have the necessity of figuring out how you routine your stuff and present it in the best possible light.

No. The trick is secondary and always has been although a lot of performers don't seem to realise it. Sure you need a good trick but in the last analysis the other things are far more important. It is not the trick that makes the magician but rather the magician that makes the trick.