talkmagic.co.uk

le_dartagnan wrote:for the love of money rather ??? yes

Money. The key reason any business or professional performer exists. Do not resent him for making money - I'd rather he did that than claim off whatever benefit system he can claim from.

le_dartagnan wrote:"It was like depriving a child of happiness and the right to fantasise when you tell him Santa Claus does not exist."

Santa Claus does exist. Ask any child. In fact, he's probably the only guy on the planet who's not worried about money.

As le-dartagnan stated, I really don't believe that any magician would start their career in magic by performing the type of stage illusion that the MM exposes, and don't see that he's stabbing any magician in the back through what he does.

The same could be said about Penn & Teller who are regarded by most as being extraordinary magicians in their own right. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid when they expose how a particular trick has been performed.

dat8962 wrote:The same could be said about Penn & Teller who are regarded by most as being extraordinary magicians in their own right. Nobody seems to bat an eyelid when they expose how a particular trick has been performed.

The methods that they expose are bogus methods. With the exception of the cups and balls, which they did expose in fact, everything that they expose is a lunatic idea that will actually work, but isn't the real way anything is done. Seriously, the one where Penn takes Teller apart then exposes it by showing teller on a roll-around cruising across the floor to get to the spots when they are opened is hilarious.

Regarding the cups and balls - I do the cups and balls and still couldn't keep up with their explanation which was slick and quick. The cups and balls expose looked more like real magic than the cups and balls done classically.

It should be noted that I'm no big fan of Penn and Teller.

Mike.

If I told the exact truth here, the MM is one of the reasons I thought about getting into magic, I bought the Street Magic Revealed dvd and thought about things logically for a while.

When you boil the terms we use down to their basic meanings, you'll find that an illusion is where something seems other than it is, and that a trick is a hoax, a sly way of putting something over.

Yes, we are all (and I *do* include myself here, even though I'm just starting out, I'm really wanting to make something of all this) brothers and sisters with one passion - getting reactions from people who believe they've truly seen the impossible. To my (albeit possibly wrong) way of thinking, this *has* to be in the performance.

Take David (monotone) Blaine for instance...

To me, his voice really does sound terribly monotone and boring, but if you look at all his shows, he only *ever* shows the tricks when the reactions are off the scale, people running around screaming. Now, be honest with yourself, when was the last time that happened to you? (please please please forgive me if I'm talking out of term here, the last thing I want to do is to make any enemies on the first post I make after my introduction) The reason is, that he chooses his targets, maybe picks people that wouldn't be accustomed to going to the theatre/club/bar to see a magician, so to see the magic happen right before their eyes/in their own hands, is absolutely unbelievable.

This is what I believe he excels at, getting a reaction (having said all that, we never get to see a more muted reaction, I wonder how many of that type of outtake there are )

Back to the case in hand though, the masked magician. You can still get a reaction from people by (almost!!!) showing them how something was done, and then proceeding to deliver the slickest adaptation of that same effect that they ever saw, to paraphrase someone, "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but a lot of ignorance is even worse"

I guess I'm going to finish up here before I start rambling, but I'd be interested to know what anyone else thinks to this.

Troy

I think that's a pretty good first post and I agree with your comments on Blaine and have posted similar comments elsewhere. I too have no doubt that there is a huge collection of footage on the cutting room floor where people have simply shrugged their shoulders and walked off, making the piece unsuitable for viewing.

I think that different cultures have different reactions to magic and whilst not meaning to offend, the 'younger' Americans appear to be at the far, almost extreme end of one sie of the scale where an over the top reaction appears to now be a common reaction to a lot of things. I've seen similar reactions to other American magicians when watching their street performances and am pretty sure it's an American thing, although I suspect our American based colleagues may have something to say on this.

I'd also add in fairness that I've noticed more and more reactions from our younger spectators in the UK, who've been brought up on a diet of American based teen TV are starting to lean towards these types of reactions too. Has anyone else noticed this?

The Masked Magician really did not reveal any amazing effects in the broadcast. I am sure no one is buying his dvd's if he has any, but he did get more people involved in magic. The only good effect he showed was the levatation act, but it just gives great magicians a reason to up there performance.

Haven't read through all the posts on this topic - but here is my 2 pennyworth....

(1) He's an American hyped up TV show maker.....they'll watch anything you know!
(2) If you look at the 'secrets' he revealed - most are 'workoutable' if you sit down and can be interested enuough in working them out anyway
(3) It's another magic show - so what's the harm in getting the general public to watch and take an interest in magic??? If you need to dangle a carrot (ie tell them how it's done) to get them to watch a magic show like that, then surely other performers shows are then watched to see if their tricks can be worked out.......

Magicians of our levels here (with the greatest of respect) are not TV show standards, are not affected by TV show ratings and probably never will be! So, why debate about this guy 'exposing' secrets that (i reckon) none of us here will, seriously, ever perform!

If he was on the TV shouting about palming cards, elmsley counts, cigarette thru coins, ravens etc. I would be a LOT more upset than him showing how an army tank dissapeared with help from a willing audience and a camera trick!!!

<--- steps off soap box and hands the baton to the next guy.......

L8R

Spurman wrote:If he was on the TV shouting about palming cards, elmsley counts, cigarette thru coins, ravens etc. I would be a LOT more upset

Actually he has done cigarette through coin and the raven in one of the shows.

nickj wrote:Actually he has done cigarette through coin and the raven in one of the shows.

Hmmmm..thanks for the heads up on that Nick, I was unaware!!

OK, so maybe that has a bit more of an effect on us humble mortals, but not a lot I suppose. Never has a spec said to me that he/she saw the MM do that on TV!

Still, as I said before, it can only rekindle if not start anew the interest in magic in the commoner!

L8R

nickj wrote:In which case perhaps we are at fault with our presentation in the first place? If we performed real magic would people feel that they had been fooled or would they appreciate the 'magic'? Then, if we could present our magic in a way which suggested real magic rather than trickery people would not feel inferior to the magician, but priviledged to have been able to watch him perform.

Wow, powerful stuff, I think there is a lot of truth in this, I think it was during a Michael Ammar lecture that he said, although most people know that real magic doesn’t exist, if we can hone our performance to make people believe that they have seen real magic for just a few moments then we are as near to perfection as we could wish for.

Mandrake wrote:I'm still very confused over how a professional magician can sternly vow to keep secrets - then writes a book of tricks for general sale!

I was a little confused myself how someone as famous as Paul Daniels and a few others could get away with publishing books for sale to the general public long before the MM was ever heard of.....Also Patrick Page got a bit of a telling off from the Magic Circle for publishing his Big Book of Magic, which gave away secrets on some of the most popular illusions.

When the net was not that popular, magic books were only available at reputable magic dealers (who could vet you a little when you visited them) and magic books by post (which is still going), only sold books to magicians, and that is still their policy, they won't sell to libraries, book shops etc........In the USA you could and still can buy a magic book in any high street book store/shop! I was shocked to go into a books store in a USA high street and find a copy of Magic for Dummies and a few others, that was so long ago now that the other titles escape me now!

Troy wrote:Take David (monotone) Blaine for instance...

To me, his voice really does sound terribly monotone and boring, but if you look at all his shows, he only *ever* shows the tricks when the reactions are off the scale, people running around screaming. Now, be honest with yourself, when was the last time that happened to you?

Troy, I happen to agree with you that DB is a monotone performer, and I said this on another US magic forum, and got slated for it, I happened to be joking......but you know the Americans........no sense of humour.....someone on this forum said that DB has a great personality, I said he has as much personality as Herman Munster!!

Actually I think DB has done a lot of good for magic, besides his rather monotone style, When magic faded from our screens with the ending of the Paul Daniels magic show, magic needed something to awaken it in peoples minds and I think DB achieved this in a big way especially with the younger generation who all want to be DB now....Most without putting the work in to learning this great art........but that's another post!!!

I also agree to a certain degree that his performances on TV are probably edited to show the maximum reactions....but it is showbiz....the directors of the show want the max reactions and when they get it they are going to stick with it, notice how he had some of the same group of girls for a an audience for a few different effects....it all makes for great TV.

I have personally had some great reactions from spectators, these overboard reactions don't happen that often but when they do, it always seems to be women, and I always think I wish I could rap you up and carry you to my next show!

Although BD did have some good reactions from some men, the screamers, for me anyway, always seem to be women.

Hmmm - it’s a good job http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic3903.p ... s+revealed was done ‘to the trade’!

JB,

I agree that the most powerful reactions come from women.

I always try to concentrate on them when performing for myself in a pub, you get far better reactions.

Last week I did Out of this World for a couple of old ladies in my local pub and one of them spent ages deciding if each card was red or black. She was really into believing. When I turned over the cards and everything was correct she dropped her drink on the floor. Blokes go, yea it was OK but women love it.

I did a TT vanish of a silk and then went behind one of the women and took hold of her blouse and pulled the silk from it. You couldn't get away with that with a bloke (maybe a bust nose ) but women will let you do anything when you are entertaining them Er, maybe NOT everything But I'm sure you know what I mean !!

I did a school prom a few years ago and I got a mixture of reactions depending on who I was performing for.....If I was performing to a table with a mix of guys and girls, they boys would say hey your not as good as David Blaine mate trying to act tough in front of the girls.....although by the time I finished at the table I got a mild acknowlegement that I was ok but nothing special!

The same guys were crowding round me later, all lads this time asking to see more tricks......now a group of girls on a table and they would go wild, screaming and saying your freaking me out!!!

I've posted a few times on my thinking on why men are like this, so I won't say too much about it here but, I think some guys feel that they are threatened in some way and see magic as a challenge! Most women love magic......you get the odd sceptics but most love it!

seige wrote:Don't worry.

Magic's greatest secrets are still safe. The Masked Magician has actually done the magic industry a favour - by introducing more people to the world of magic.

It's been the only high-profile magic programme on TV for a while - and therefore has given everyone a dose of magic.

Plus, if he's given the secrets of magic away, why isn't the world of magic dead? I'm sure if someone found out McDonald's secret recipe or CocaCola's magic ingredients that they'd go out of business.

The effects exposed here are mostly prop tricks. The real magic is safe and sound with the REAL magicians.

You'd be surprised that since people found out that David (who?) Blaine isn't REALLY the Messiah - there's been more and more 'Blaine-ites' appearing.

The Masked Magician has his reasons for doing what he's done - most of which are commercial. It's far less controversial than you think... at least he performed most of them *well*.

In essence - the MM has not changed the world that much at all - except to raise Magic's profile on TV.

I say, well done that man.

I'm an amutaer at magic so I havnt heard of them all. But I wouldnt worry xpexically after this post that I qouted. And theres some secrets that just wont be found out for a while. But by then they will probably think of new ones. Also its like the coke and mcdonalds thing that he siad. So I dont see a need to worry.

The thing I have noticed is that he shows how to do a lot of David Blains tricks.

Every time I see David Blain on TV, it's the same tricks, over and over.
So maybe the guy has a grudge against him or something. Thats my personal oppinion