talkmagic.co.uk

Lately we have had a flood wave of "Crazy Magic Hatters" from Wonderland, not looking for Alice, but they seem to have the desire to reveal magic and make the knowldege known for over half of the population around them. This attitude puzzles me. They are a source for the hecklers and "irritating relatives" that like to show the rest, they know how the magic trick is done, even though they have never tried it.

Ethics of magicians are the same all over... or you are not a magician.
One of the golden rules is, never to reveal your secret, be it sleighs or methode.

But would we then get any new magicians in the world?

Oh yes we would. There are always a few that go to libraries and find books there. There are always those who know somebody that can help them out, and a lot of magicians teach magic to an "apprentice" that will become a magician and keep the secrets for years and years. Person to person, the way it has been for centuries, I guess.

But with the Internet, things have changed. It's so easy now to put up a web page or a video and expose magic. Some think this is natural and you can't do anything to stop it. I just think we need a bit of an attitude change, mainly from (as it appears) teen boys. Some of them violate the law, by posting copyrighted material and are so naive, they think they can change the name of, for example: Stigmata to Stigm@t@ to free them for lawsuit.

Of course there have been a few, and mind you... a few magicians that have violated the ethcis, but not by using the Internet.

The Internet posting violators have argued: Why can't we post those things? You can't copyright a move! But they seem to forget that some people make their living from performing magic. Others make living from creating magic and they are being robbed by those violators

Let's take some examples:

There is a huge difference between, for example:

- a grandfather teaching his grand daughter some magic skills.
- a magician that sits in the back room of a magic shop and calls a kid over to teach him some good sleights (true story).
- somebody that goes to the library to find 1 or 2 good books on magic and takes them home for a month.


and then

- some teens posting 100's or 1.000's of sleights, secrets and even copyrighted tricks on a public website, accessable to any laymen that want to be able to heckle a street performer. Some have even posted training vids from PenguinMagic or Ellusionist directly on their websites, which is actually a criminal act.

The ones in the first group are basicly on "one on one" basis, while the 2nd group is revealing magic to tens of thousands of Internet users.

One of the teens argued: Why should magic only be for the rich that can afford to buy boks, DVDS etc.?

I say to contradict that: Why should anything in the world only be for those who can afford to buy it? Shouldn't we just be allowed to steal or take what we like and use anything as we please? I'd love to get a new Jaguar, should I steal one, just because I want to?
No, magic should be for everybody to enjoy, but only for a few to perform.

Or... A friend of mine is so poor, he can't afford to buy the Harry Potter books. Shouldn't I just steal some for him or even make photocopies in the local book store, for him to read? Tsk... tsk... tsk... How naive attitude!

There is a petition here, with almost 1.200 people, asking YouTube to stop revealing magic. That should apply to any other page that teaches (read=reveals) magic.

And there was a brilliant suggestion on TM, asking magicians to change one and one word in Wikipedia, where magic is explained in details. I tried it the other day, changed 3 words on the page about The Pass, and now a week later they are still as I left them, making it impossible for anybody to learn it from that page.

But I think the bottom line is that anybody who wants to relate to magic and call himself/herself a magician, should keep the magician's code and not reveal magic. The others are not worthy to call themselves magicians.

I totally agree, even though I sometimes like watching other magicians perform. But exposure like the tutorials are horrible. I have no problem with funny videos like http://youtube.com/watch?v=tk8p6g_lRkU

Totally agree, I've never understood why people would even want to expose tricks. They're giving away something that they themselves have spent time and effort learning (or maybe not going by the state of some of those youtube videos).

They say they can't afford to learn through books, you can get a decent book for under a tenner. I'm sure if they can afford all those flash video phones and cameras, £10 for a book is nothing.

I think part of it is that the internet makes people lazy. They don't go out of their way to hunt down new music. And they won't buy CDs or movies if they can download them from a torrent site.

As for the point of magic only being for the rich folks who can afford books and DVDs, that's utter piffle. All good libraries are absolutely stacked with useful books on the subject. They might not be the latest presentations from ellusionist, but they're still jaw droppers and will come as more of a surprise to your mates if their only experience of magic is watching Criss Angel or David Blaine.

But there's a little more involved there than downloading pirated eBooks and videos from the net.

So... should magic secrets only be for the people willing to invest time, effort, imagination (and whatever money they can comfortably afford) into researching, learning and practicing new skills by legitimate means??

And following on from Lady of Mystery's comment, I actually find that I often don't want to know how some effects are done.

I've come to get a feel for the kinds of effects that I'd be interested in performing myself, and the kind that just have no connection to my personality or approach.

Where I can't ever see myself performing an effect, I'd rather remain amazed by it than kill the magic by learning the secret 'just because'...

And I've never forgiven my brother for telling me that Santa doesn't exist!

A very simple thing I've learned in my 20 odd years on the magic scene:

Magician's don't reveal secrets. They share them amongst themselves.

Anyone, it seems, who is quite happy to pass on information and divulge secrets, is certainly not a magician, as they have no respect for the art.

The idiots and bedroom capitalists who plague the internet with exposure sites are simply small-fry. They don't harm magic as a whole.

An intelligent spectator enjoys being entertained, and the comparison I made earlier in the week between a magician and a stage comedian is very solid and factual:

A stage comedian does an hour and a half on stage... they tell jokes you've heard before, and yet you still get entertained as a whole. And you even laugh at the jokes because they are funny and presented well, even though you know the punchline, you still enjoy the show.

The question of 'who should be allowed to be a magician' crops up here.

Let's look at a small example, and compare:

JOE BLOGGS sees a Criss Angel show. Suddenly, he's filled with enthusiasm. A quick dabble into Google gives him pages of magic resources and online shops. But wait... JOE BLOGGS is a schoolkid, he's got no money. But he sure knows where he can download ebooks and movies... So he does... piles of them. And starts skimming through to learn something.
After 3 years, he's still learning, and studying hard.
After 5 years, he's performing. He's never spent a penny on magic in his life, and yet he's now making a living from it. And he's just become Young Magician of the Year.


Meanwhile...
JOHN DOE sees a Criss Angel show. Suddenly, he's filled with enthusiasm. A quick dabble into Google gives him pages of magic resources and online shops. JOHN DOE is a schoolkid, he's got no money.
But instead of an Xbox 360 for his birthday present, he carefully selects some magic items... books, dvds and tricks.
Suddenly, he's hooked. Can't get enough. By 18 years of age, he's earning his own money, and can't wait for payday to get the latest effect or a new book.
After 3 years, he's still learning, and studying hard.
After 5 years, he's performing. He's always invested well in magic—there's been turkeys along the way—but the dedication and money spent have paid off, as he's just become Young Magician of the Year.



So...
Two pretty similar stories. But is Joe Bloggs entitled as much as John Doe to become a magician? Joe has stolen the secrets, John has paid.

They've both put equal amounts of time and effort in, but wheras Joe invested nothing more than hours spent downloading the stuff from filesharing forums, John invested money in magic books.

...and...
BOTH of them can 'talk the talk', and BOTH of them can 'walk the walk', as they've both learned from the same sources essentially.

It's SO hard to draw a line through.

I think most of those kids who find the youtube tutorials aren't really going stick it out in the long run. They're just looking for the secrets, I'll bet that in a couple of years time they'll be bored with magic and will have forgotten everything they learnt.

Agreed... but I guess I was hypothetically mapping out a parallel of two different 'what if's'

Siege i have to applaud you sir for your comments they couldnt have come across any better than the way you write it. I also find myself wondering sometimes what is ok and what is not. I think magic is like your girlfriend after youve been with her for 5 years, your always walking on egg shells because you got to be careful of what your doing, you know these woman can blow at any time and i find magic a bit like that its always a case of is this ok or is it not. My personal thoughts on it are as follows:

Dont agree with:

Upload videos
free sites
people telling there mates or whatever how its done
copying and redistribution of disks, books etc
giving free tricks away under any circumstance

Do agree with:

helping people at magic clubs to do a certain sleight (not trick) because most of them arnt credited to people and if they are they were probally created in 1850 or years ago also you know they are dedicated to the art because they have gone to the bother of attending the club in the first place and they go week in week out

Borrowing dvds or books from the societys library or off of someone who attends providing you know they are dedicated or vica verca and i say this because ive brought so many rubbish dvds its unbelivable, so if i borrow one off of someone who is in the society and watch it at home yes i might get the tricks for free but if its good any way i will buy it myself so i always have that reference and if it was rubbish and i dont get anything off of it i wouldnt buy it because i would never use it anyhow so i havent got nothing from it anyway. Saying this i would never borrow anything to someone who was not in a society because i wouldnt know whether there dedicated to magic or just a free loader.

If someone in the area come up to me and said i want to be a magician would you teach me. I would at first evaluate them and make sure there just not looking for a few tricks, if i think there genuine i would teach them a very simple trick and then direct them to the library and if i know they have been to the library and say for instance they come round to me with the book from the library saying they dont understand something can i help them, i would then help them and after a couple of months of me seeing a genuine interest off of them i would then direct them to a society and a dealer.

Just my two cents worth anyhow, these are just my personal opinions of what i think i would do in certain situations

This has been bugging me for a while, and this seems like the thread to get it off of my chest.

Somone I know is a compulsive secrets revealer!
I met him through some friends who are in the T.A with him and they told me he was good at card magic. He is pretty good, however after every trick he'll say "and heres how I did it" and show everyone around how its done! Infact he makes a bigger deal out of exposing the trick than he does of actually performing it!

I've tried talking to him about it but he doesn't seem to care at all.

He's not the sharpest tool in the box and I suppose the exposure of tricks makes him seem / feel quite clever, but thats no excuse to killing off another mans art!

Lady of Mystery wrote:Totally agree, I've never understood why people would even want to expose tricks. They're giving away something that they themselves have spent time and effort learning (or maybe not going by the state of some of those youtube videos).

They say they can't afford to learn through books, you can get a decent book for under a tenner. I'm sure if they can afford all those flash video phones and cameras, £10 for a book is nothing.

I agree with the last line. When I was young well younger then I am today I was hanging around with some quite well to do kids. When one piped up
"I have an ibanez, a pearl drum kit and a gibson bass. oh and i just brought a pair of new rocks, I am hungry"
"go buy some food then!"
"Oh i havent got any money i brought my new rocks with it"

Anyway back to the point of the topic, I have a thought a lot of people who want to find out how a trick is done, is because one them type of magicians "I tricked you there I tricked you good if i show you the next one you wont sleep for a month" One of them types has done that to a spec so its almost a challange for some one to go out and find out how its done.

I met an amature once and he was doing a couple of tricks for this guy and he was giving it large with the look at this tirck I was watching with keen intrest.They where basic tricks but handled smooth but the way he presented the trick was awful realy one of them "I am more clever then you types" And the chap watching wasnt impressed. You dont win any friends like that and I think that is why a lot of lay people will find out how a trick is done just so they can shout out "I know how you done that"

Why dont magicians value there secrets no more? I dont know maybe its more of an acceptance thing like : Dave is a magician but ask him how its done and he will show you grand kudos dont you think.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I think most of those kids who find the youtube tutorials aren't really going stick it out in the long run. They're just looking for the secrets, I'll bet that in a couple of years time they'll be bored with magic and will have forgotten everything they learnt.

Lady... in your little 'pink and fluffy' utopian bubble, perhaps that's true.

But the more malicious and entrepreneurial pirate finds more fun in re-badging and compiling eBay 'Be like Blaine' sets for £5 than they do from the magic itself.

For the best part, I agree that people's interest fitters away. But for some super-cool creative brains, the 'digging for secrets' path MIGHT be the way into magic. And they may even go on to greater things. Everyone needs a catalyst.

My post implies that what's to stop a magic pirate becoming the next top-act? Or what's to stop them becoming the next magic mind genius?

As I stated, whether you're buying, or stealing, you're using the same resources, walking the walk and talking the talk in the same circles. Ergo, either way, you are 'entitled'.

It may sound like I'm condoning or even recommending piracy. That's far from my point here.

My point is that there's no 'school for magicians' or 'degree in XCM' or suchlike. A magician's qualification is non-academic and as such, how a magician becomes a magician and gains the right to use the title is a very grey area indeed.

Wake up and smell the coffee, people. In this internet age, nothing is sacred anymore. Lines have been crossed, taboos are no more, and what we once held sacred or hallowed is now quite simply uncontrollably open-plan.

It's an evolutionary step, but as has been said before, it's not going to KILL magic as an industry. And as more and more freeloaders come on board, magicians will have to be more creative and doubly inventive to keep one step ahead of the game.

And they will stay ahead of the game, because they're passionate about what they do.

Internet revo/evolution... reminds me of threats of a 'paperless office' becoming the norm... fax machines being phased out and A4 copier paper manufacturers going bust overnight. The humble pen and paper disappearing from our lives.

But our offices, and I guarantee everyone else's, are if anything more laden with paper than anything else.

An exposureless magic community? Nah. It ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

seige wrote:Wake up and smell the coffee, people. In this internet age, nothing is sacred anymore. Lines have been crossed, taboos are no more, and what we once held sacred or hallowed is now quite simply uncontrollably open-plan.

Seige, I think you are rolling over and giving up too quickly!
Let's look at something that is also illegal, (like stealing or posting copyrighted material,) spam mail.

A Californian court has made a landmark ruling against a company responsible for the sending of unsolicited emails.

In what is being seen as the first anti-spam judgment of its kind, PW Marketing of Los Angeles County has been issued with a $2 million bill.

Imagine if everybody would just roll over and say: We can't fight spam, in this Internet age nothing is sacred anymore.
I think we, the magic community, should persist...

seige wrote:An exposureless magic community? Nah. It ain't gonna happen I'm afraid.

Maybe not totally without exposure, but each website of exposure that is closed and each exposing vid that is taken "off air" is a step towards less exposure. I also think we should express our feelings to other magicians, that haven't thought this through. Magic shops will close rapidly all over the world, if everybody can download tutorials for free from the Internet and buy their supplies from Costco (or whatever those huge stores are called). We wouldn't want that!

Blimey Seige, I'm going to stay in my pink and fluffy utopia, much nicer place I think.

I do understand what you're saying though. But the same could be said about music or dance websites, when I was a kid I learnt to dance and learnt to play the fiddle from lessons and books which I used to save my pocket money for ages to buy. Now I could get the same material off the web for free.

But that free material is only going to get you so far, sooner or later you'll need to buy some decent material to progress. That's the crunch point I think, if they're serious they'll pay money for the books and as soon as you start spending money on it, you're whole attitude changes I think. Those that don't want to spend money will be left with a limited range of tricks and bad methods that are only good for showing their mates. But even showing their mates wont be any fun because the mates will have seen the youtube videos too so they'll give up.

Piracy on ebay is a totally different matter and is theft in my opinion and is something that should be stamped out.

Agreed...

But unlike the spam mail example, the Magic community hasn't got a leg to stand on with laws etc.

Spam mail, on the other hand, can bring corporations down, clog the web etc.

For every magic exposure site which closes, another will pop up. And with country's laws being all different, file sharing and piracy is rife.

Wanna see how piracy laughs in the face of the law?

http://thepiratebay.org/legal

I'm not rolling over and giving up easily, but all these discussions were covered years ago, and they've simply gotten worse.

Petitions are fine, but the logistics involved in implementing the closure of sites in this, that or any other country are far beyond simple.

And by the way: nobody can fight spam mail. Again, US State Law isn't valid in many European countries. And laws are always made to be broken anyway.

The larger and more popular the internet & email become, the more of a breeding ground for unsolicited selling/spam it will become.

I've been involved with the internet right from the start, and even with all the threats of activist participation in getting rid of spam etc., it's just more rife than ever.