talkmagic.co.uk

There is not one trick that I can think of that is as good once you know how it's done.

Like Seige says it's the effect that you should be interested in, not the workings behind it.

Seige:

This is probably the stepping-off point for another thread, but the effect simply isn't the only thing that a useful review should concern itself with.

If it's accepted that the point of a review is to help people decide whether or not to buy an item, there are things other than just the effect that will factor into this decision. You want to know if the effect is practical, is it practical for the situations in which you might use it. You want to know what is demands of you in terms of skills you must have, perhaps clothes you must wear. These things and more.

Typically an advert for a magic product will tell you what the effect is (hopefully reliably) and, often a list of things that it isn't. It's very, very possible to buy a product on the strength of an advert agree that it's a perfectly good product but find you have wasted your money because the product is of no use to you.

Retailers and manufacturers usually excuse the omission of the necesary information for making a purchase decision on the grounds that it's exposure. If the effect is exposed then there are two groups of people who will not buy it:
One is unscrupulous people who will make and/or perform their own version. The argument here seems to be 'we'll be unscrupulous so you don't have to be'.
Two is people for whom the effect is not practical or it is beyond their skill set or level. Is it right that people should only find out they belong to this category after they have spent their money?

The whole point of a review, beyond the reviewer giving their subjective opinion of the product (which is based on their individual circumstances) is to tell people whether it's going to be right for them. Otherwise what's the point? We can all find the ads and demo videos.

Bang-On is one of those effects whose usefulness to you is determined by whether you can handle some of the requirements it places on you, and to decide this it's necessary to discuss aspects of the method. Remember that this isn't a cheap effect so it could be an expensive mistake.

I realise that this is a broader argument but it is very relevant to this product. I disagree very strongly with the idea that we mustn't expose any details of the method in a review thread since it's 'exposure'.

For the record, I think it's great and I use it. But that doesn't tell anyone what they need to know, does it? When I perform Bang On it's necessary to drop a couple of other things from my repertoire (which I'm prepared to do), but you want to know what, and why, don't you? If I told you it would be edited by a moderator. This must be the only area of retail where it's considered 'unethical' to tell people what they will be getting before they buy it.

Isn't it time for a more enlightened policy on magic item reviewing?

Charles. I quite think you rather verbosely missed my point.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time I admit.
Re-reading your last post though I can't interpret it any other way than 'the effect is all you need to know about so don't ask about the method'. This is something that's been said more than once in this thread.

Please put me out of my misery if I have the wrong end of the wand.

I am implying that if someone knows the EFFECT and how the EFFECT plays out practically and in performance, that constitutes a review.

Endless fishing about how it's done and such like should NOT be part of a review.

It's a fine line towards tipping the method in many circumstances, and more recently on the forums it's become fashionable to dig, dig, dig about how, what, where rather than the bottom lines:

1. Is the EFFECT good
2. Is the EFFECT practical
3. Is the EFFECT worth the money
4. Is the EFFECT practical in x,y,z situation

and NOT:

1. Would I need to use an xxx
2. How many extra xxx do I need

etc.

If you wish for that information BEFORE deciding on purchase, speak to the manufacturers. As consumers and reviewers, we do not have the right to disclose the inner workings of these things—that's at the discretion of the manufacturer/creator.

And it's bloody bad manners/etiquette to keep on asking as well.

Granted, there's been discussion on the practicalities, but far too much is being given away here, and before long it becomes apparent who the offenders are.

I don't think I missed your point. I just don't entirely agree with you. I think a potential purchaser has a right to know exactly what they're getting before they hand the money over. How else can you know whether there's a pig in that poke? We've all bought stuff that we wouldn't have bought if we'd known exactly what it was. We end up with 'junk' sat in a drawer or eBaying stuff at a loss. It shouldn't have to be that way. It isn't with anything else you buy.

Me: Hello. Can you tell me about that car?

Salesman: Up to a point sir. It's very good, and suitable for you, I promise. It doesn't burn cute little kittens for fuel and there are no electrified seats that might frazzle your children.

Me: Right. Um, what size engine does it have?

Salesman: Can't tell you that sir.

Me: Why not?

Salesman: Well, you might not want to buy it. I can tell you that it doesn't have trained pygmy horses under the bonnet. Nor does it use magnets or IT. And it can be viewed surrounded.

Me: Does it run on petrol? Diesel? LPG?

Salesman: Are you trying to ruin me?

Me: Sorry?

Salesman: If I told people that LPG cars ran on LPG they'd be less likely to buy them. Or...errrrr.....they might make their own!

I won't buy things any more unless I know exactly what they are. I either have to wring the info out of somebody at Alakazam by phone (which they don't want to do for the same reasons as you argue) or I have to know someone who has the item. Is that person being unethical by showing me how it works so I can decide whether to buy it? I believe that they aren't.

I can't believe I just had IT censored.

i understand the issue of not exposing too much here. There are always people lurking around for secrets here.But i have to agree with Charles. Products like Bang On needs much information before we buy them and the best way to know that is by asking our fellow magician.

Of course we can just ask the manufacture, but in my opinion, for you to get a REAL review, you have to ask a person who owns the product. On the other hand, we have to know not to cross the line. I believe my questions are legitimate. I dont see what's wrong them. I cant really work out the method from simply knowing the size of the product. I see no reason why it should be edited.

I also have some issue with members sometimes blatanly accusing others for fishing out the method. This is what ticks me off. We are suppose to help each other, hence the reason for this forum in the first place.

For any of you guys are looking for more info on this product, they are being discussed in much 'relaxed atmosphere' in the cafe.

nikyas wrote:We are suppose to help each other, hence the reason for this forum in the first place.

As mentioned before this isn't really the place to discuss the exposure/review issue, but it is an interesting subject so I will continue for the moment. Perhaps we will split this thread out at some point.

As I see it, the line between exposure and review is very hard to define, mainly because we have no control over who reads these messages.

If this was a discussion down the pub then if asked I would tell you everything you need to know. I would even dem it and then show it to you hence you would have everything you need to know to make a decision as to if you wish to make a purchase. I will add that if in a pub I would have a furtive glance around to make sure no one else is listening before spilling the beans.

Unfortunately though we don't have that level of intimacy in places like this so we have to apply rules and restrictions that can often appear as ridiculous or petty.

Although you may not have been a culprit, hobbyists (and lay people) do come to forums like this to learn secrets. In the case of Bang On – this is not so serious as to make the effect up yourself isn’t particularly feasible.

On the other hand, there was a tremendous amount of fishing going on in the Wayne Houchin soda can effect, which meant if you learnt the method you didn’t have to buy the effect, and I think we all can agree that that was very wrong.

As I said at the start there is a fine line that has to be drawn somewhere

Amen to that.

Any reviews on TM are just that and nothing more, they're not product approvals or entire assessments of the trick and they are by their very nature, subjective. Whilst it's good to get as much information as possible I think it's expecting a bit much for all questions to be answered in the open forum. If anyone really has to know a certain aspect then the PM function is probably the best way to ask the question of the reviewer.

Reviews and discussions are good.
Exposure and revealing is a whole other issue.

I'm just curious to know what kind of magic car Charles Calthrop wants to buy? Kitty Kitty Bang Bang? It's strange to compare buying a car to buying a magic or a magic prop. Magic is all about secrets and honours between those who know the secrets. Also... a car dealer is selling cars. TalkMagic doesn't sell anything. It's all about discussion on sensible level.

He should rather compare magic with somebody that wants to know the ingredients of the Coca Cola syrup. Do you think a consumer of Coke could get the exact ingredients? I don't tink so...

gunnarkr wrote:I'm just curious to know what kind of magic car Charles Calthrop wants to buy? Kitty Kitty Bang Bang?

Now, that's funny. I'm glad I brought this up, if only to read that!

It's strange to compare buying a car to buying a magic or a magic prop. Magic is all about secrets and honours between those who know the secrets.

Well, I realise the comparison breaks down at some point, but performing magic is about entertainment and - usually - secrets. I think buying magic is about a business transaction and it's more than reasonable to know what you're paying for.

He should rather compare magic with somebody that wants to know the ingredients of the Coca Cola syrup. Do you think a consumer of Coke could get the exact ingredients? I don't tink so...

'He'? I'm here!
You can drink, and maybe even enjoy a can of Coke without being any the wiser about the ingredients by the time you're finished. Anything you need to know about Coke you know (like sugar content and whether or not it has peanuts in it). The 'ingredients' of Bang On play a large part in determining whether it's of any use to you.

Open challenge:
Respect to anyone who can write the most bizarre analogy based on buying a magical effect. Suggestions: street drugs, a christmas tree, gardening manure (easier for anyone who bought Silver Shifter).

ok a question that should be fair to ask is it a selfloading rifle or bolt action.

a question that might not be fair to ask, if a have two magazines do i need to transfer my gun to another holster.

This seems like a strange and redundant conversation going round in circles.
If you given a demo of a trick at a magic shop you are not generally given even a hint towards the secret until you hand over some hard cash.

It stand to reason that in a highly subscribed public forum frequented by many secret hunters that we should be just as cagey if not more so.
We are not even peddling the effects, only reporting on them.
Aside from that, dems da ruulz.

Yes, it is sometimes difficult to know what is ok to post, but generally if I am unsure, I simply do not post it.

Those that actually own this already must realise the power and virtues of such an effect and really should try their level best to keep the workings to themselves, both from an ethical point of view and also simply so next time they are on the verge of delivering a mind blowing conclusion instead they just get some muppet shout out "he's got a lemon in his aardvark!".

This isnt like a DL or IT, even if someone has the secret they cannot perform it without handing over 70 quid so hinting at the secret, accidentally or not should be a no no.

I like the non exposure policy here, and it is difficult enough for the mods to get people to adhere to this and decide on what is and isnt exposure without attacking them for doing so.
Please give them a break

I now await my flaming with open arms

I had my posted edit by a mod' I did not bother to respond because I could not be bothered!

I agree with the comments above about explaining more in reviews or discussion.

In my post I stated that this effect took "something" the word I used did not give away any secret or method but would be helpfull to someone who was thinking wether to buy.

If all we can state is advertising blurb which can/ is misleading along with I think this is great, it's no wonder so much stuff ends up in the back draw.

Another well know forum gave me the pointers I was looking for before buying this, and I was greatful because it is a lot of money.

One final point we must not lose site that magic does not exist so it must be a trick (that we make look like magic).

1 wallet, 1 envelope, 1 card we all know its a 1 in 52 chance so there must be a method. Saying how practical the method is should not be off bounds as long as the method is not tipped.