talkmagic.co.uk

well i geuss i learned something new today, ty Dem

what is it with all this bashing of people just because they are sucsesful on these forums. lets be honest all magicians are dishonest they are allways trying to trick and fool people and you use what evere methods you can to fool the type of audience you are performing to. therefore if you are performing to people sitting watching they're tv's then you use any means and i mean any means possible to achive the effect you want even if that means using camera tricks occasionaly or the use of stooges. it is no differnt to useing gaff cards or gimmicks you use in your street magic or the props and boxes you use on stage.
i do sometimes feel that people posting on these forums seem to think that because a magician has a sucessful tv show then they should be able to do real magic instead of illusions that we all do.

It's whether they are entertaining or not. Watching Paul Daniel's tv shows in the 70's and 80's he used pure sleight of hand and his skill was appreciated by layman and magician alike.

If you saw him do an effect that you knew, it still stunned you how indetectable his sleights were, even though you knew what to look for.

If you read how many of the (British) people on here got into magic, Daniels name crops up a lot as he inspired people to get a deck of cards and practice, hoping one day to acheive his standard. Angel will only inspire goth kids to spend a load of money on Ellusionist and drop magic when Angel goes out of fashion. Another teenage fad.

He's as much a magician as Spielberg or George Lucas. He is an actor who uses special effects. There is a difference.

It's not a case of people being jealous of him. More a case of not being that impressed. Blaine, Zenon, Brown, etc can walk up to someone in the street (not a stooge) and perform astonishing magic which is all the more impressive as it is in front of real people and utilises their skill.

Criss Angel, with his stooges, is the magical equivalent of Vanessa Feltz. And we all know what happened to her tv show after it was revealed the 'real people' were members of Equity.

The thing about young Criss is that it's quite obvious he'd rather be in a rock band. Indeed i understand that he suddenly discovered magic after he'd had a (failed) attempt to make it in the music industry. I don't know whether that story is true or not, but it would make sense.

And what is it with the same script every episode: his brother begs him not to do the stunt, the test run goes wrong, he hurts his back but soldiers on, and then there is success at the end. All interlaced with him doing "close up" for purdy gurls who are just too purdy to be real.

Hey, it's entertaining rubbish - don't get me wrong. But it's not magic.

Is it just me or was the Motor bike jump/vanish realy amazing? be it camera trick or stooges, he does have some great effects. This one has me stumped...which is nice.

On youtube, someone, a computer guy that understands how to blend images together showed how he did it. He showed the tell tale signs. (I would say more, but I'm not sure if this falls under the "exposing magic" no no.) In my mind, it doesn't in the least. I don't consider computer editing or the making of superman movies "magic" in any way.
Yes, it was a nice effect--a nice special effect. And there was a nice shot of the people clapping (for who knows what, we'll never know--maybe just seeing the bike fall to the ground was enough for them.)

I am appreciating more and more david copperfield's line: "One continuous shot."

I don't know whether that story is true or not, but it would make sense.

No, I'm pretty sure he's always loved magic. There's clips of him when he's young, doing magic.

Okay so heres my thoughts on the Illusion itself, I figured out a way that he could've had five or six people in on it without camera tricks. and leave the rest wondering how he did it. I'm sorry about this but I'm not gonna tell how I think it was done because I don't want to give away any magicians secrets. I will say this though, Criss has been practicing for well over 30 years by all credible sources I've seen so I would not be suprised to find out that he does not use camera tricks. Secondly as for the girls being "too purdy to be real" (I mean no offense by this) I wonder what your idea of "purdy" is because I know girls who look much better than most on his show

Did anyone else in the UK see the CSI New York episode on Channel 5 on Tuesday of this week? Criss starred as 'Luke Blade' the successful illusionist with a warped mind hell bent on revenge and, just for the sheer hell of it, murdering his victims using ways very similar to the illusions he was perfuming in public at the time. The Chopped in Half illusion (as featured by David Copperfield) was the first and shortly afterwards the two halves of the corpse of a young lady assistant, still in the sawn boxes of course(!) was found but the next one was more interesting. It was based on the Fire Walking effect Criss did in Las Vegas where he parades around on fire for some time before dropping to the floor, bring smothered in CO2 from the assistants' extinguishers but is reduced to just a pile of burnt rags. Lo and behold one assistant is revealed as Criss. The plot involved a possible explanation (i.e.exposure!) of how Criss could have done this - probably pure hokum but it sounded good and moved a very flimsy plot onwards!

The only good trick he has done is the metamorphoses in like half a second with no curtain, he really needs to speed up his tricks, it takes 10 minutes

Having heard so much about him I checked out a few of his videos on youtube. Can't say I was very impressed. The difficulty is deciphering camera tricks, actors, stooges etc from the real deal. Not a huge fan.

Checking out his website made me feel rather ill.

http://www.crissangel.com/

Paying to be in his fan club? Is this a new concept in magic? Horribly overpriced merchandise and other tosh?

$36-$100 Per year for a fan club?
$500 for a signed canvas?

Ridiculous

Well...I actually quite like the guy. But sometimes his illusions are too over the top. I find his show to be quite entertaining. I like how he makes very simple card effects look so good. And he gets huge reactions. I was watching one episode called Close-Up, I think its season 4, which was pretty good. Anyway, I think he ok, but again, he is sometimes too over the top.

Oh and the fan club price is RIDICULOUS.

I've got to say I find peoples reaction to the use of stogies and camera work quite funny.

I work with children a lot and quite often when performing tricks (mostly card). I have people snatching things from my hand, or refusing to do a trick until they can take my cards to the next room and shuffle there card into the deck etc. And the one rallying cry of these kids is 'Your cheating!'
To which my reply is 'Of course I'm cheating that's all magic is.'

And now we have magicians not simply saying they don't care for Criss angle due to his style or form of magic but whinging that the man "Is cheating"

I can see how the 'Alice cooper' look can be off putting for most but the whole camera editing/use for stogies argument is just weak.

Stogies have been a part of the magic performance for years especially in stage magic. From the 'lovely assistant' to the guy in the audience rifling through someones purse. The only reason stogies are now coincided wrong it because Derren Brown doesn't use them. But there is a good reason why he doesn't use them as he is doing televised mind reading/manipulation tricks and if it ever came out that he employed stogies his whole act wold fall to nothing. "Your thinking of the three of diamonds." "Of course I am you told me too."

Derren does however use camera work. Maybe not as much as Criss angle but if your going to perform magic you have to be careful about what the camera reveals. In some of Darren's televised performances he puts someone into a trance state beforehand and gets information without the persons knowledge to perform an amazing mind reading stunt. Other times what you see is what you get.

The same can be said for Criss Angel while pretty much all of his tricks employ stogies, the actual illusion is still witnessed by people not in the know who are blown away by an effect.
Remember Criss Angel performs Stage Magic and disguises it as Street Magic. What he's done is taken the trap doors and assistance's and smoke and mirrors form its accepted setting of the stage and moved it to a place people didn't expect.

I would like to clarify at this point before I go on that even though I'm strait, I love Derren Brown so much I would let him do me, He could have me if he wanted and he wouldn't even have to use hypnosis (and no I'm not accusing him of doing things like that).
And the Ellusionist Website fills me with bile. (people seem to like to group criss angle fans and Ellusionist users together and not without reason) Not the people buying from Ellusionist, I'm more forgiving of children than most (although if I saw a kid with something from Ellusinist I would ridicule him to tears, it wouldn't be personal though). My problem with Ellusionist is firstly its trying to make magic cool, Magic has been and always will be for the slightly geeky social misfit and it doesn't need a bunch of twelve year old's Covered with Ellusionist tattoos arm bands and woolly hats coming along and * up the whole medium. My second (and primary) problem with Ellusionis can use Wayne Hochinis Stigmata on sale at Ellusionist as a perfect example. I brought that awhile ago from the site (actually prior to my coming to talk magic where I would have been warned) and after learning the trick I started talking to a guy in a magic shop about techniques I planned to use with stigmata. Upon mentioning Wayne Hochini he went away for a bit and came back with a collection of manuscripts dating back to I don't know when showing that very effect. So Ellusionist and Wayne are theives and crappy thieves at that. They give away one effect as if its a big deal for over £30 and that one effect wasn't even theirs to sell. My final problem with Ellusionist is IT'S SPELLED ILLUSIONIST YOU JERK!

Where was I? Oh yes Criss Angle. I think my argument boils down to the fact that, regardless of the trick camera work he uses sometimes and the stogies he uses all the time. Any man who can walk on water (I know how its done its not trick camera work) is a man who must by English law be praised.

Also I was looking through the Ellusionist website and some videos on youtube of opening the 'Ultra rare worth over £250 black ghost deck.' And I've got to ask what's with opening packages with knives? It seems that when you shop at Ellusionist you get a compulsion not only to open packages with a knife but to tell people you opened the package with a knife.

http://forums.ellusionist.com/showthread.php?t=33129

Did Derren Brown not say in the International Magic lecture DVD that the question of using stooges is not a right or wrong point of view as since magic is set out to decive from the very start - the point is more about the aesthetic's rather than the moral right or wrong.

As an ametuer and beginner, I actually hold Criss Angel as an influence on myself as a performer. Not particularly for his tricks, some of which are quite amazing and some of which are rather weak (however they are done), but more for his showmanship. His style and 'punk rocker' look (while not exactly what I'm into) are as far as I can see a very modern and original way to present magic.

I haven't actually seen any of his live stage performances or anything, witnessing mostly just clips of tricks off the internet and such. But the way he performs street magic in an almost casual way I think is interesting. He doesn't necessarily announcing what feats he will perform with spectacular granduer ( there's no "Prepare to be amazed as I..." as an example). But rather he just sort of goes through the motions calmly and in control, yet looking as if he is experimenting and himself not quite sure what the outcome will be. But this style of performance causes the results of his tricks to surprise (or shock) the audience even more, as not even their performer seems totally aware of what to expect yet still seems totally in control and capable of what he is doing.

Of course while this impresses me, I can see how somebody else would find this style of performance perhaps flat and boring. Each to his own. Criss Angel's 'look' (though like I said isn't something I'd copy) is something I think adds to his performances though, and his target audience. It can't be expected that everyone would find this appealing in a performer.

If that barely makes sense, I can think of examples of his tricks to illustrate what I mean. The 'Lady in Half' trick, and the one where he pulls a chicken out of an egg out of a lemon out of an orange.

Of course he uses more 'granduer' (as the word I used before) in his larger tricks, as such a performance would warrant.

I also agree with much of what Jean Eugene Roberts said. I used to be of the opinion that too many stogies, and who the hell is amazed by the trick if their all in on it? A lot of Angel's stogies are also bad actors, hehe, but I was still amazed by the trick even if they were in on it. The only problem with stogies is, as Jean also pointed out, once people know you use them the trick is often ruined.

Just my opinion,
Thanks,
Cal