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Magicians only section

Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 15:13



There seems to be resentment in some quarters that magicians may be interested in mentalism. It has been insinuated that magicians should keep out of mentalism and stick to magic.

As we have areas on here just for mentalism, should we have one just for magicians? If you are in the mentalist forum, you can't have access to the magicians one and vice versa? Maybe we should go the whole hog and say if you have a card section, you can't belong to a section that deals with stage magic?

Or maybe we could just accept that people might be interested in more than one area. Maybe even starting out in one direction, but finding another suits them better?

I look up at the top of the page and see it says " Talk Magic. A great place for magicians to chat." If mentalists say that magic and mentalism shouldn't mix, why are they on this forum? Are childrens entertainers allowed to do vent routines? Surely they shouldn't as this isn't magic? I'm just confused why on a magic forum, magicians can be spoken down to.

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Postby Lawrence » Oct 28th, '07, 15:20

Should I stop my juggling then? dang!

Can we include a line in the T&Cs that says "Check your elitism at the door" or something?


Nothing wrong with being interested in multiple things is there? And if not, is it wrong to mix catagories? I know some mentalist types don't like to include cards in their routines, but that's just their choice, and there's nothing wrong with it. [waits for someone to point out that Mr Brown uses cards]
Meh, some coin folk never touch cards; I rarely touch coin magic myself.
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Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 15:29

Derren would have to choose if he wanted to join the card or mentalism section, not both.

If you were juggling, you would be in another section.
You couldn't juggle sponge balls, as that includes a magic prop with juggling.

Silly ideas? I agree. Some comments on the forum would suggest you have to stick with one form of magic, so this is the way it would end up.
Maybe people that want to try different genres should be allowed to, rather than sneered at. If not, where does it end?

It is strange that some people who make the comments, have changed the genre of their magic over the years themselves. A case of do as I say, not as I do.

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Postby magicdiscoman » Oct 28th, '07, 15:33

it always amuses me to think that mentalists don't like to call themselves magicians, they use all the basic same as us but besause there magic is mostly mental based some think there a cut above everyone else.

yes they have to put in years of study, so do most coin workers and card workers.
yes they have to study body language, so do magicians.
yes they have to study psycology, so do most magicians.
yes they jelosley guard there secrets, so do most magicians.

they don't generaly have to deal with utube exposure because most of there stuff invovles using there brain, we do.
having started out as a mentalist in my youth and gone onto childrens entertaining via coin work i can't see what all the fuss is about but i expect someone more qualified than me will be along to clear it up, till then I'm clueless.

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Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 15:45

I wonder which takes more skill?

A mentalist using a technique or prop for a prediction, or a childrens entertainer trying to predict what the little brat that has tried to rummage through your prop box will do next?

I just hope that some people will realise that if you want to stop people learning one genre of magic if they know another, will realise that if they feel that way, why should we stop there? Maybe we should have a section on cards for those who only use sleights and another for those that use gimmicks. Another for stacked decks, etc etc. Maybe it could be accepted that people might want to learn different things. They may find something that they could perform better, or enjoy more.

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Postby Lord Freddie » Oct 28th, '07, 15:47

I think we all know what pompous prat is the one who can't stand magicians playing in his sandpit. Best not to play to his rules. He already thinks he knows all there is.

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Postby mark lewis » Oct 28th, '07, 16:02

You must of course mean the very Reverend Browning. He is also a psychic reverend just like myself but his innate modesty prevents him from talking about it as much as I do.

The interesting thing is that at one time he did quite a lot of magic too. I understand he was quite active in the illusion field.

For the record I also believe that mentalism is simply another branch of magic and I see no need for elitism. I am quite sure that every mentalist was once a magician too.

There is just as much skill in being a mentalist as there is in being a children's entertainer. However it is a different kind of skill. I appreciate both and indeed perform in both areas.

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Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 16:08

Lord Freddie wrote:I think we all know what pompous prat is the one who can't stand magicians playing in his sandpit. Best not to play to his rules. He already thinks he knows all there is.


Though I may or may not agree with your comments :wink: , these are the sort of comments that have been provoked. Maybe it is just time for the diversity of "magic" to be accepted. If magicians can be seen to be treading on mentalists toes, why do they post on topics that have nothing to do with mentalism? Just trying to point out that there seems to be a contradiction here. It might just be they suddenly think that " Oh yes, I do post about magic, then complain about people commenting on mentalism." As far as I can tell, the fact that they may have years of professional experience as magicians, before becoming mentalists, doesn't mean they should be qualified to give answers, opinions etc on magic. If the two aren't compatable, lets seperate them out once and for all. If, like me, you find this silly, then maybe a stickey could be made that states that you can talk about ANY magic realated topic. Something needs to be cleared up, as the arguments will continue.

Just saw this was posted while I was writing. Painful as it is for me to say this, but I ag.ag.agree with Mark Lewis. Time for a lie down.

mark lewis wrote:For the record I also believe that mentalism is simply another branch of magic and I see no need for elitism. I am quite sure that every mentalist was once a magician too.

There is just as much skill in being a mentalist as there is in being a children's entertainer. However it is a different kind of skill. I appreciate both and indeed perform in both areas.


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Postby AndyRegs » Oct 28th, '07, 16:17

I would say it would be ridiculous to suggest that anyone who has access to the mentalist only section should not have access to the magicians only area.
Mentalism (to me) is one branch of the magical arts. 'Magic' is an umbrella term that covers a whole host of styles and genres. There are people on this forum who work in a variety of styles depending on the wants and needs of the people they are performing for, and what the situation and environment allow for. To suggest that they shouldnt have access to both areas because they perform mentalism as well seems daft and a little bit childish. Take Christian Chelman for example. An accomplished bizzarist, mentalist, close-up, card worker and comedy magician. Would we turn away his advice if it was freely offered because we want to pigeon hole everyone.

Derren would have to choose if he wanted to join the card or mentalism section, not both.


Really? So if (hypothetically) he chose mentalism, we would refuse to let him share his wisdom about card work with us?

Not all mentalists (or even those who bat for both sides :shock: ) look down on magicians. They may have there preferences, and dislike certain types of effects (don't we all), but this whole thread seems to be a case of cutting off ones nose to spite their face.

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Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 16:42

AndyRegs,

If you read my posts, you will see I am in full agreement with you. Some aruge otherwise, which causes conflict in posts. It is good that the cosensus seems to be that we should all be able to get on with whatever genre of magic we wish. I hav eno oproblems there, but have problems when some mentalists argue that magicians should stick to magic.
There is an easy answer to this. If someone knows what the Magic Circle, IBM, etc defines as magic, maybe the fact that their combined history, knowledge etc would more than match any here, we could use that as a guideline.

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Postby Lord Freddie » Oct 28th, '07, 16:50

Darrel, I posted that because I felt that was what inspired your initial post.

And Rev Lewis, you are indeed very right. It's all connected parts of the same art and if a mentalist claims what they are doing is absolutely unconnected with magic in anyway then they are either fooling themselves or Uri Geller.

It's funny how the mentalists who deride magic as being an inferior art form to the one which they perform, yet inhabit all the forums with 'magic' in it's name. Talkmagic, magic bunny, magic cafe, magic woods....yeah, it's nothing to do with mentalism.

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Re: Magicians only section

Postby Craig Browning » Oct 28th, '07, 16:54

Darrel wrote:There seems to be resentment in some quarters that magicians may be interested in mentalism. It has been insinuated that magicians should keep out of mentalism and stick to magic.

As we have areas on here just for mentalism, should we have one just for magicians? If you are in the mentalist forum, you can't have access to the magicians one and vice versa? Maybe we should go the whole hog and say if you have a card section, you can't belong to a section that deals with stage magic?

Or maybe we could just accept that people might be interested in more than one area. Maybe even starting out in one direction, but finding another suits them better?

I look up at the top of the page and see it says " Talk Magic. A great place for magicians to chat." If mentalists say that magic and mentalism shouldn't mix, why are they on this forum? Are childrens entertainers allowed to do vent routines? Surely they shouldn't as this isn't magic? I'm just confused why on a magic forum, magicians can be spoken down to.


Have you ever asked yourself why this might be the case... why Mentalist would prefer it if the guys and gals that insist on doing balloon work, sponge balls, and whatever new trendy bit that comes down the path to stay away from their side of the art?

I'm not saying this to be argumentative only to point out that reasons do exist and they have been an issue within mentalism longer than I've been sucking air, so there must be a reason outside "my" opinion. So rather than whine about it and insist on something as ridiculous as a "magician's only" section in a forum that is predominantly Magician Oriented/Dedicated like some child that's not getting his way, why don't you ask yourself why many of us in Mentalism want the segregation? Ask yourself why there are forums that are exclusive to Mentalism and nothing other? Or, let's ask ourselves why there needs to be separate forms and groups for the Card Workers, Close-up Specialists, Kiddie Entertainers, etc.?

The reasons are, believe it or not, all the same; RESPECT FOR THAT FIELD AND KEEPING THE SECRETS OF THAT FIELD AN EXCLUSIVE TO THAT FIELD. Part of that "respect" includes holding integrity within each area of the art. I can assure you that there are nuances around children's shows that I have no need to know based on what I've done in magic or do... it was a requirement when I specialized in Illusion shows and it is not a requirement now, as I take on the role of being a Mystery Performer... from the military point of view, YOU DO NOT NEED TO KNOW the how & what of my side of the craft if it does not pertain to what you DO. It is not your area of specialty e.g. you have no business snooping around attempting to fit into a realm that is not yours... or, conversely, my trying to step into an area that is not mine... like doing kiddie shows or taking reprise on my short lived attempt at doing close-up AS A VOCATIONAL PATH OF SPECIALTY.

In my youth these divisions made sense, were rarely if ever drawn into question or for that matter, consciously ignored. George Kreskin or Mr. Fogel were not expected to share their secrets in an open manner unless they knew YOU WERE SERIOUS ABOUT LEARNING THEIR CRAFT. That means that you were dedicated and as such, not out hurting yourself and your craft by doing those birthday party shows on the side or trying to create an inventory in which you have your close-up act, an escape act, a hypnosis act, an illusion show, the Goth "Freak" show, etc. In other words, showing your azz as a member of the Heinz 57 pot pourri world of the magic buff dreamer.

Look at history, not just magic but all aspects of life in which people are successful, you find that they are consistently focused on ONE THING AT A TIME and not trying to do it all. From the days of Dale Carnegie to present, there is not one "better yourself" type program that I've seen that does not stress the Zen idea of FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS and keep your mind focused on the goal based on where you are at right now, what you know you can do right now, and how to make that your "boat" if you would, that will get you to where you want to be (realistically) in a year, two years, five years, etc. Yet, in these forums we have hobbyists that keep telling the pros and worse, the guys around here that have been around longer than even me, that we don't know what we are talking about and that there is nothing wrong with mixing it all up until you "find yourself"...

If you think what you see on TV in the hands of Criss Angel or David Blaine is "Magic" or even "Mentalism" I can assure you, you're wrong! I've not seen a solid mentalist on TV in many years, the closest person I can give that credit to is Derren Brown but even he leans more towards a more broad "generic" idea of self-definition so as to give himself sever "outs" as it were. From the theatrical point of view however, much of what I've seen Derren do comes closer to what the yesteryear Mentalist sought (he's just got to stop with the follow up and telling people it was fake, a joke, a trick, etc. THAT IS AGAINST THE YESTERYEAR CODE OF STANDARDS when it comes to TRUE or PURE mentalism).

I've gone off course a bit in the hope of clarifying the "why" segregation is needed and why, if you haven't noticed, more and more actual Mentalists are stepping away and once again distancing themselves from the magic world... again, a common practice that became a hint laxed over the past decade but is on the road to serious reprise... I have the funny feeling that this PHENOMENON catastrophe recently aired in the states will expedite things...

Set your desire to learn it all to the side and just think it through. There are nuances and elements known to each area of magic that belongs exclusively to them. When you come into that world you are expected to honor the rules and ways of that arena NOT go around mixing and melding everything and trying to convince someone like me that PK Sponge Bending is legit.

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Postby Michael Jay » Oct 28th, '07, 17:05

You've managed to completely miss the point, Browning.

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Postby bananafish » Oct 28th, '07, 17:09

Lord Freddie wrote:I think we all know what pompous prat is the one who can't stand magicians playing in his sandpit. Best not to play to his rules. He already thinks he knows all there is.

Lord Freddie - that seemed unprovoked and rude to me. Please behave yourself and try and refrain from making snide comments.

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Postby Miles More Magic » Oct 28th, '07, 17:14

Craig,

I only read the first paragraph of your reply, as you made it clear that magicians should keep away from mentalism and to their own side of the Art. This and the fact you state that mentalists have their own forums shows you have no respect for the magicians Art, feel it should be separate, yet break your own "rules" by posting on a magicians section.

I don't want to argue, so I will just ask this question. It should only need a short, straight answesr.

Why, if magic and mentalism, in your opinion, should be kept apart, do you post in magic forums?

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