talkmagic.co.uk

I have now figured out what Tomo is chattering about in the first sentence of his post.

He appears to be reprimanding Reverend Browning and not me. The best response he can come up with in reply to Craig is his complaint that the word "reader" has been incorrectly capitalised.

I naturally will assume that Craig is mortified by this stunning reprimand and will respond in his inimitable way.

Although I am not personally interested in this subject, I was getting bored at work until I saw the name mark lewis crop up. I decided that his comments would entertain me for a few moments, for which I thank him.
I must take issue with him though.
It is you that should be paying commision to Ian Rowland, as you have been able to plug your book twice using this thread.

I understand that you need to advertise, as sales must be almost non-existant. Maybe because people are ripping off your goods and sending them to other people.
Craig Browning wrote about losing income this way, in a thread a little while back.

If there was ever a case for a post to be put in the Sin Bin, your attitude and apparent condoning of Pirated material is surely a prime candidate.

I am curious what the Mods do, as you seem to have made a mockery of the forum rules.

Jeez.. (don't know if that's an accepted word in the UK - but it's the best expression I could think of).

Isn't it interesting how this kind of thing always descends into personal nitpicking. It seems to me that the ones getting personal here are those defending the book

This is a REVIEW. Which means that positive and negative comments are welcome. It's not a place to defend someone because you like him or feel sorry for him - or even if you like his book. If you like the book, great - then say it. But if you don't like it - then you should also have the freedom to say it.

For me it is relatively clear. You have those who don't do Readings (or readings) who praise the book, and then you have those that actually do readings say that the book just doesn't measure up.

So - my deduction - if you don't want to actually do R(r)eadings, but would like to be an expert on exposing how psychics supposedly do R(r)eadings - then get the book, study it, put it under your pillow - whatever.
If you actually want to do Readings - then quite frankly I would rather follow the advice of those who are experienced in the field.

It's easy to think something is the best if you haven't compared it with anything else. I honestly thought it was the best thing out there - but that's simply because it was the only book on the subject I had. Rowland writes relatively well and he does sound like an expert.
However - having now worked through some of Richard Webster's stuff, Ron Martin's stuff (Tarot Reader's Notebook), Millard Longman's Psychic skills workshop, Bob Cassidy's book on Cold Reading and the sequel, The Psychic Tarot, Craig's book - Easy reading (sorry Mark - haven't got to yours yet - run out of money for a while) - Ian Rowland's book really doesn't come close.
Sure - that is my opinion, but this is a review.

... so anyway... just to re-iterate, I've just bought a copy ( original ).

Yet to receive or read, but I am sure it will be food for thought.

Best,

Piers.

...if anyone has photocopies of Mark Lewis's stuff and wishes to send them onto me, well....*joking*

anyway, my only question is now - if the Ian Rowland stuff doesn't work - how come the Derren Brown cold reading stuff did/does in his American one-off show? 'Cos it was pretty much all from Rowland's book...

This isnt to start an argument, arguments are too easy on forums...just as cynics are told to not be so, well....cynical - i think those that are on the other side of the coin should also give credit were it's due and perhaps not be so dismissive...

Both sides always seem to insist that their's is the only way...very odd...

abraxus wrote:how come the Derren Brown cold reading stuff did/does in his American one-off show?

His accent maybe??

abraxus wrote: 'Cos it was pretty much all from Rowland's book...

Hmm - I'm not too sure about that. Some of it was pretty freaky stuff. I suspect he's an undercover psychic..


The 'debate' isn't about whether you can use the Rowland stuff for cold reading - sure you can. But - it's been sold as THE source for this kind of thing (usually by magicians and skeptics - not guys with experience actually doing Readings). As Mark said - it isn't as comprehensive as it claims to be.
And - the point of the Derren Brown thing was exposure, wasn't it - which is what I was trying to say. It's good for that kind of thing - but if you want to actually do readings.. the Rowland stuff doesn't cut it. But then again - the kind of person getting this book is usually a magician wanting to add a bit of cold reading to their magic ('the coin disappeared because you have a scar on your left knee' kind of thing).
So I guess the whole argument is a bit pointless..

anyway - enough said already I think.

but then again, hoping back onto this psychic roundabout - i don't think exposure was the main thing behind the Derren Brown thing, i thought it was more about belief systems and how easy it can be to lead by someone..regardless of whether they were genuine or not...

he only erm...exposed himself afterwards when there were no cameras around...something which i think we are all guilty of at some point in our lives...

I'm interested in getting the Kenton stuff next on this subject...

The rather awful Derren Brown (whom I made famous in the first place even though he doesn't know it) has also never done a paid reading in his life. I do not count readings on TV as paid readings I am afraid. He knows as much about the psychic world as he does about the care and breeding of Japanese butterflies.

As for his mentalism I viewed a copy (also pirated) of one of his TV shows. It was bloody awful and I was screaming out for mercy and praying for the commercials. I thank God daily that I accidentally deleted it. I suspect that Ian Rowland is somewhat better as a performer since I remember him as a more amusing and charismatic personality whereas Derren is as dull as dishwater.

As for photocopies of my stuff I was expecting that response. It should be remembered that I am a professional psychic and know these things. It should also be remembered that I am a genuine psychic unlike Rowland and can put curses on people. Besides two wrongs don't make a right. And of course before you can copy my stuff you need to buy it in the first place. I shall therefore expect you to all get your money out.

Anyway I am justifying my use of the pirated material by saying it is self defence. The awful Rowland child has attacked my honourable profession and has advised his readers to bait us. His attitude of debunking and exposure of we sainted metaphysical people is quite reprehensible and my thievery of his book is merely sweet revenge.

Anyway I am not reselling it and it was thrust upon me. It arrived unexpectedly as a gift in the post. I did not solicit it and the temptation to read it was too great to resist. What would my detractors have done? No doubt they will say that they would immediately have sent it back unread despite the fact that it would have taken them time or cost them money for postage. I will merely reply to that with a question. Here it is:

Have you heard the one about the three bears?

As for exposure I don't think Brown or Rowland are actually guilty of that. Not a single psychic that I am aware of looks at reflections in coffee cups or uses any of the methods outlined in Ian's book or Derren's so called "exposures". If you are going to debunk or expose then at least use the correct methods.

I must inform abraxus that my way IS the only way. I am MARK LEWIS after all and messrs Brown and Rowland are not. I am the professional psychic reader (now semi retired) and they are not. I have done thousands of readings and they haven't.

I do agree with taneous that Richard Webster is the way to go. I would put him as the top source. The other sources he lists are also superior (although I confess I haven't seen them but I am psychic and know these things) and I thank God that Kenton Knepper is not mentioned among them.

Taneous mentions that he has not seen my material. This of course is the end of civilisation as we know it. However neither has anyone else. It has been grossly undersold and hardly anyone knows about it. It consists of 4 videotapes and one audiotape. 3 of the tapes last about one hour and the audiotape and one of the videos last 90 minutes. The videos consist of material about Palmistry, Chinese Numerology, the Tarot and one bonus tape called "the fireside chat" which explains the business side of things. The audiotape is quite wonderful and talks believe it or not about the ethical side of cold reading. It was first put out by Martin Breese years ago and sells for $20 on it's own.

All the videos can be purchased for $50 each. If all four are purchased I will throw in the audiocassette.

It is EASILY the best training in the industry and quite frankly if you go without it you are not studying the art of cold reading properly.

What's wrong with the Kenton stuff then Reverend Lewis?

It is bloody awful and he hasn't done a paid reading in his life either.

The wonderful Mr Brown will of course not not be able to defend himself here,as when he is not performing and thoroughly entertaining audiences internationaly, his time is fully occupied with his other lifes work..........collecting and breeding Japanese butterflies!!!

Cheers,
John

john1960uk wrote: his time is fully occupied with his other lifes work..........collecting and breeding Japanese butterflies!!!

and I thought it was taxidermising cats... Oh well. Never too late to learn something new.

As for Kenton's stuff - I've read Completely Cold and I didn't think it was that good. I also thought it was way overpriced - but I've felt that about a lot of Kenton's stuff. 'Mind Reading', on the other hand, is excellent (as far as I'm concerned).

mark lewis wrote:It is bloody awful and he hasn't done a paid reading in his life either.

Sorry Mark but I happen to know better on this one... Kenton has in fact done a fair enough share of paid Readings to at least understand that a difference exists between being a READER vs. a Cold or Scripted mockingbird acting like a psychic.

As to TOMO's complaint about using a capitol R when referring to a person that does READINGS vs the small r, which denotes someone that is reading this thread... well, that says it all doesn't it? It's a matter of subtle clarification as to what is being spoken of and in what perspective, nothing more. So stop letting such little courtesies (sp) annoy you; I tend to do it out of habit in that I do this same capitolization in all of my books and articles. Then again I do have a social-political reason for doing this... I'm not ashamed of being a Reader. Contrary to the misinformation spewed forth from the mouths of skeptics, cynics and self-invented "experts" I happen to know that I'm not a crook or con-artist (as the good Rev. Lewis would boast himself to be... but I happen to know, he's got a bit more heart than he puts on)and I'm not out to take advantage of those who are desperate and seeking some kind of magick pill to fix their woes.

When it comes to the book in question it should be pointed out that most EVERY ONE OF THE TACTICS EXPLIANED can be found in a college level text on Counseling and the Psychological Dynamics of Interpersonal Communications... after all, the majority of that particular (now validated) field came directly from the gypsy's craft, aspects of anthropology and an extension of Dream Interpretation which can be traced back thousands of years in and of itself. So given that FULL FACT what makes the modern therapist any less a con-artist or crook than the local palmist or tarot card Reader?

I've found that they are in deed more dangerous and predatory in that they have the ability to legally prescribe medications that are highly addictive as well as potentially damaging to the body and more! Yet, they are seen as the up-standing professionals of the world simply because they have a college degree in the same basic thing I've done for 30 years and of course, they are in partners with the chemical and pharmacuetical companies as field reps and, for lack of a better term, pushers.

Are all shrinks rude, crude and money grabbing?

Nope! But a solid case could be built up on data that is far more up to date and FACTUAL than what you will find in the majority of these "How to be a Reader" books on the magic market of today; most of which refer to a series of concepts or suppositions that are generations old and rarely offer anything more current... talk about beating some dead horse flesh, as intellectual and "scientific" our cynical fellows are supposed to be you'd think, in the 60 some odd years since the Forer experiments and disclosure of the Barnum effect that they'd find something a bit more substantial and contemporary... but hey, I'm just confusing the issues with a valid point of fact, aren't I.

The bottom line is, those that wish to believe, will and those that don't want to believe, won't. There is nothing written or carved in stone that goes outside the auspices of man-invented excuse that says we must be a**holes over it all and try to cram our point of view down everyone else's throat, now is there? Similarly, there is nothing carved in stone (and this is very important to bear in mind) that says, "If you are a student of stage magic or mentalism you must denounce your belief in God and all things magickle, fantastic, surreal, metaphysical and/or miraculous. You must bow down at the altars of Science & Logic, surrendering your innate sense of will, freedom and connection to life and the Universe." Yet, this is the attitude so many CYNICS want us all to take if we are in fact, involved in this craft... I do stress that this is a recent attitude and is does not parallel the older, more roundly accepted ideas of what a Skeptic is (skeptics frequently hold to faith... just look at Houdini, Kellar and Thruston a bit deeper if you doubt me. Thurston was preparing for Seminary before he met Kellar.)

We've all got to stop bowing to the bully tactics others would impose upon us and learn to listen to our own inner-voice. That is the only place you are going to find your own "truth" to the over all issue at hand.

Well put Craig!

While I don't really do any readings myself, except maybe within the context of a Date With Destiny, reading Kenton's works and the value others have found in them demonstrates that he knows what he's talking about.

..can't say i've found any Kenton stuff overpriced...especially as they cover such a wide variety of material, and once you get into it all, they're all kinda 3in1 books, it works on one level, then another and so on and so on...

i've found each time i've revisited one of his books no matter how many times i read them, there's always something else to think about or pick up on...

could just be that im slow on the uptake...probably...

kentonism and trance this! are my faves so far...still digesting twists and trances..