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How do you practice something like the "invisible deal"? Where everything is suggestion?

I've been working on the patter, and tried it with my husband yesterday, and the only thing i got right was that it was a black card

If it's just suggestion than the best practice is real world experience. If your not confident with it just present it as an experiment. Presenting it in that way will take the heat off if you get it wrong.

(I'm unfamiliar with this effect or I call it by a different name)

Ian the Mental-Ian wrote:(I'm unfamiliar with this effect or I call it by a different name)

It's part of The Devils Picturebook by Derren Brown, if you've seen it?

That's on the top of my list ( I feel ashamed to admit that I haven't purchased it yet), but my advice is the same practice the suggestion and than try it on people under the pretenses of an experiment.

Got to agree with Iain there. I perform this effect as an experiement in suggestion, that way there's less "heat" if it goes wrong. This also seems to help people get in a more "serious" mood and thus helping the trick.

Oh and by the way Ian, BUY THE DEVIL'S PICTUREBOOK NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

In some respects, friends and relatives are the worst people to try this sort of thing on. Which of course makes it even more difficult to practise!

I have two suggestions. One won't necessarily help you with the main effect, but will let you walk away with your head held high. Use an 'out'. This could be an ID, a card index, or a bit of paper you write the card's name on before you start. If they get the card they were supposed to, great, but if not, you can use your out and hopefully you'll have learned something for next time.

Second, sometimes people 'get' what you want and then they will say the opposite. This is common with know-it-alls and, often, people who know you well, especially if you do a lot of magic for them. One possible way of increasing your success is to make it look like they are the one trying to do something. "Let's see if you can get this." "You're doing really well, now. Do you think it's a Spade or a Club?"

smoked salmon wrote:I've been working on the patter, and tried it with my husband yesterday, and the only thing i got right was that it was a black card

You probably need to be more forceful about exactly where you want them to pretend to deal the cards. This is an effect that can only really work on a spectator who is on your side and is as eager as you are for it to work.

I don't perform this, but if I did I would place down two coins about 12 to 15 inches apart on the table (or two empty glasses, etc.) and tell them to deal each pile infront of these. That way it's much easier for you to note what imaginary card is going where. And be very specific when you say things like "spades and clubs, or hearts and diamonds".

I hope that's not exposure. Since it will make absolutely ZERO sense to anyone who does not own The Devil's Picturebook I assume it's fine.

Oops, I forgot exactly which effect his was, and Queen of Clubs has reminded me. She's absolutely right. You must make your instructions and actions very clear. Then their actions should be clear too.

like someone said above. Use the ID.

I do the invisible deal quite often and have had great success but the times it doesn't work, I've always got the old ID to cover me 100%. Not much more you can say for using an out really. The ID is the best.

Presentation wise, just go fairly slow at a nice, natural pace, don't rush the stages and mumble, take your time, making it clear although not painfully obvious ofcourse. I found the more I did it and made it my own, the better I got. The script has to be second nature to you and feel natural and actually visualise it in your mind yourself as you do it. It won't work on everyone ofcourse but keep at it.

ID - as long as you produce it on the table once they've dealt down to one card, and before they name it...

you could swami around the problem too..

other than that, it is just force of command, and clarity...

Yes, do exactly what the other guys have said. I have found that if I am trying to make up a new patter I go out on the streets of London and perform it to random spectators but before I will tell them that I'm performing this to get the patter right or to get a certain sleight need in the trick perfect. That way not only are you performing but if it all goes wrong it is not as embarassing and spectators will not put you down as a magician that much.

1 - Anyone reading this thread who doesn't own it... Go and buy Devil's Picture Book now!!!!!!!

2 - I have tried the invisible deal quite a lot and the most important things are to:

A - Make sure the spectator is on your side, as Queenie said. You have to get them to buy in to the idea before you start and make sure they DON'T just make a card up.

B - Keep checking for visual queues (such as head nodding etc) to make sure that the spectator is following along as you get them to deal the piles. As soon as they stop paying attention, or you start going too fast, all is lost.

I disagree with the idea of changing the patter to suit you. By all means, present the effect how you feel most comfortable, but the words and gestures Derren uses in the effect have been honed over thousands of performances, that's why it works every time for him.

If this helps at all.... I have had more success using the thought force for 3 of Diamonds.

Part-Timer wrote:In some respects, friends and relatives are the worst people to try this sort of thing on.

Absolutely. Friends and family know what your like and know how you act in person, so if your trying to come across as doing something your not they are more likely to pick up on it.

This effect is really about being on top of the commands your giving and being absolutely clear what they are meant to do and even act it out for them. Specific commands that need to be clear should be repeated but not extensively. If a spectator is suspicious of you trying to get them to do something, they'll do the opposite.

Also the key to such effects is to make sure the spectator is 100% enthusiastic about taking part. If they are not completely interested in whats going on, don't bother, you won't have their attention and the commands won't work.

All it boils down to as we always say, is presentation and confidence in what your doing. If you got that down, you shouldn't have many problems.

You could actually gain the trust and more healthy involvement of the spectator by not setting this up as a trick, but more of an experiment. When using equivoque or any psychological force I state explicitly that this "might not work" and that the spectator should go with what "feels right" try to impress upon them that theis will be more enjoyable for everyone if they "play along" - without saying those words.

Apart from framing the effect differently you might also want to pay close attention to collocation. This is the word order you are using - the reason we say "fish and chips" not "chips and fish" is collocation. Be mindful that when gesturing for the spectator to divide the cards into two piles of "black and red" that you gesture on the words "black" and "red" but also in the same order as they are sitting. Specifically, English speakers read from left to right if your spectator is seated opposite the success of ths effect can be helped by ensuring "black" is their left hand pile and "red" on their "right" - repeat this for suit and then numbers "odd" and "even" for example.

There's some great thinking on this type of eqivoque effect out there at the moment - a David Regal script in Pete McCabe's "Scripting Magic" forces a single card while the others are burnt in ficticious flames... and in Hector Chadwick's "The Mental Mysteries of ..." there's a series of effects and essays on the wider and more deceptive use of equivoque.

...and always have an ID as an out!

Matt

If I can help further please PM me.

I'm probably asking a stupid question right now - but what is an ID?
(got the answer to that one now - thanks!)

Swami could work nicely as well, definately.

My problem is that I'm not aiming to be a professional magician/mentalist. I'm just doing this as a hobby - something to entertain friends and family with... so I have to practice with friends and family

I've tried it again, and although it didn't work - I discovered something in my patter I need to clarify. So it was useful pratice