Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby kevmundo » Aug 19th, '12, 19:24



I will keep on believing it. Why oh why do so many mentalist have such high opinions of themselves? And why do so many think that the word 'magician' is an insult? Please can someone explain it to me? You're not there to prove how clever you are, you're there to provide entertainment. Most people would think that Derren Brown was a mentalist, but even he refuses to give himself that label. Indeed, he doesn't give himself any label. The fact that there are so many puritanical people about who insist on dictating whether this or that is or is not mentalism is really quite sad.

For some reason, all forums (not just magical) appear to be populated by people who enjoy making mean spirited comments about other peoples posts. They'd rather make snipey, cynical remarks than say anything constructive or helpful. It's really quite bizzare. Patronising someone, or belittling their position on a matter, is merely the projection of that persons own insecurities. It's unhelpful and pointless.

What drives me, is seeing peoples eyes light up when they see an effect. Having people shout 'wow, do that again, that was amazing!' Personally, I don't give a monkeys what you call it, or whether it complies with whatever your prescriptive definition of mentalism is. I prefer to choose whatever works for me, and if that means am I to be shunned for not being a true and proper mentalist or sound observer of the faith, the boo-hoo to me!!

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Mandrake » Aug 20th, '12, 12:57

Why oh why do so many mentalist have such high opinions of themselves? And why do so many think that the word 'magician' is an insult? Please can someone explain it to me?
Probably because we're all human beings and, as such, are flawed. As soon as you see someone posting derisory or personal remarks you know they're probably quite insecure and therefore their opinions perhaps aren't to be taken too much to heart. Many of the replies aren't meant to be critical but the written word simply doesn't carry the proper emotions and additional factors which a face to face spoken response would carry. Cut them some slack and stick to your point of view in a courteous and polite manner - it irritates the critics like hell!

(and if a post really is OTT them PM a Mod and we'll deal with things - better than joining in a flame war)

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Craig Browning » Aug 20th, '12, 15:53

kevmundo wrote:I will keep on believing it. Why oh why do so many mentalist have such high opinions of themselves? And why do so many think that the word 'magician' is an insult? Please can someone explain it to me? You're not there to prove how clever you are, you're there to provide entertainment. Most people would think that Derren Brown was a mentalist, but even he refuses to give himself that label. Indeed, he doesn't give himself any label. The fact that there are so many puritanical people about who insist on dictating whether this or that is or is not mentalism is really quite sad.


Mentalist look at what they do very differently than magicians, we understand the difference and therefor, we do not treat it all as being a JOKE. The attitude you are projecting here is exactly why mentalism cycles as it does, frequently becoming quite difficult for people to get hold of material as the real workers retreat, once again trying to find a way to protect their craft from those that don't understand and worse, refuse to respect it.

Magicians tend to feel it perfectly right to steal material out of a Mentalists program but you won't find Mentalists trying to figure out how to put that nifty sponge bunny act into their shows. . . THEY KNOW BETTER, they understand that such is a Magic Trick and NOT a Mental or Psychic type manifestation.

Yes, we are "Entertainers" but up until recently most of us have been known as Mind Readers and Psychic Entertainers, we don't work with disclaimers and we play what we do for real . . . that is, until certain individuals in the U.S. and UK decided to kick mentalism in the nuts and turn it into "tricks" perfect for the kiddies with white faced clowns featuring MOAB as part of a kid's birthday party show. . . and you're wondering why some of us get pi**ed and low down on magicians? :roll:

Another News Flash . . . people tend to have much more respect for actual Mentalists than they do Magicians. The term "Magician" is frequently snickered at if not moaned over when it comes to the typical lay person because so many magicians STINK! . . . sometimes in a literal sense but we needn't deal with French bathing habits :roll: But then many tend to have a rancid booze smell rolling off of them, are unkempt, rude, and pronounced womanizers or old trolls sporting for the young lads. On top of this few of them seem capable of spelling the word "rehearsal" let alone do it.

Even you would have to admit that it's rare to find someone that's an actual performer amongst the heap.

For some reason, all forums (not just magical) appear to be populated by people who enjoy making mean spirited comments about other peoples posts. They'd rather make snipey, cynical remarks than say anything constructive or helpful. It's really quite bizzare. Patronising someone, or belittling their position on a matter, is merely the projection of that persons own insecurities. It's unhelpful and pointless.


While I have a crass and drool sense of humor I'm rarely "mean" (though some pacifists think otherwise). I will call a spade a spade and I will explain things as both, I understand them and as certain situations were taught to me . . . this includes my views on Magic & Mentalism. I learned from legends in the industry who were no nonsense when it came purity of each facet within the craft. And no, I'm not projecting my own "insecurities" I'm actually quite secure when it comes to such things because I have people reaffirming such daily on about a half-dozen forums as well as in my community -- I'm loved and admired though nuttier than a fruit cake and madder than a hatter. I also have piles of eMails and actual letters and thank you cards from people that held the opinion you are presently sharing of me some years ago, because they came to realize that I was the main person not blowing hot air up their kilts and giving them the hard facts. Even people on this forum that have less than a fond sense of me, have to admit that my words and guidance have been of use to them.

What drives me, is seeing peoples eyes light up when they see an effect. Having people shout 'wow, do that again, that was amazing!' Personally, I don't give a monkeys what you call it, or whether it complies with whatever your prescriptive definition of mentalism is. I prefer to choose whatever works for me, and if that means am I to be shunned for not being a true and proper mentalist or sound observer of the faith, the boo-hoo to me!!


And again, we have proof that you don't understand the difference . . . especially the difference when it comes to reaction. If you're just after the accolades then please leave the mentalism alone that's not what it's for. Mentalism is participatory and experiential; unlike magic it is presented in a manner that removes disbelief while encouraging an investment of belief. Magic comes from the angle of agreement between patron and performer that trickery is involved from the start, which should NEVER be a part of proper Mentalism -- NEVER! The instant you post a disclaimer that's not cleverly worded you've lost the ability to lead your audience down the path that gives you silence . . . that leaves them uncertain and having to decide within their own mind what it what . . . this is the goal of the Mentalist, at least that's what I've seen in the majority of the older books out there over the years; everyone from Annemann & Larsen to Boarde & Dunninger.

Are you to be shunned?

YES! You and every magic buff that has this sort of attitude should be shut out from access to the deeper secrets of Mentalism. . . and it's happening! More and more material is being sold by invite only and in very limited quantity due to this particular attitude as well as an untrustworthy magic market (let's just say, "Piracy").

Wouldn't you shun someone that disrespected the things that you love and are invested in?

Smash & Stab is an excellent example in that it was developed for Mentalists and over night, ended up mass produced by numerous sources, none giving the two chief developers any credit whatsoever. Then we have every tom, dick & harry that saw the thing on TV buying it up, barely reading the instructions and getting blood all over the place. . . all because they wanted to do a "Neat Trick" rather than allowing to remain with the big boys that had a proper presentation of it that made it more than a trick. This and the Mental Epic are two awesome examples as to how magicians, with your frame of mind, have hurt Mentalism; when such pieces are seen too often in a magic show, they become worthless to us unless we can make drastic changes.

A magician friend of mine and wannabe Mentalist came to see my show some years ago, saw me do a particular routine and after I'd confided in him as to the source of the effect I'm getting calls from his chums asking me to teach them my presentation . . . no fewer than 3 local magicians wanted to STEAL a primary effect from my show and yet you wonder why Mentalists look down on magicians. . .

I hope I've given you a few things to consider. :wink:

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby kevmundo » Aug 20th, '12, 16:11

You're clearly very sensitive about 'your' craft. Thankfully, you don't own it, and never will.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Jean » Aug 20th, '12, 16:14

Oh yeah?
Yeah!
OH YEAH?
YEAH!

Invoke not reason. In the end it is too small a deity.
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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Lenoir » Aug 20th, '12, 16:21

This is golden.

"I want to do magic...but I don't want to be referred to as a magician." - A layman chatting to me about magic.
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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Mandrake » Aug 20th, '12, 16:46

Like I said, over reactions are not the way to go - all take note.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Stephen Ward » Aug 20th, '12, 17:03

Can't we all just get along? :wink:

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Mandrake » Aug 20th, '12, 17:09

If I had a pound for every time I'd said that or something similar I could buy everyone a large G&T. Instead it's (yet another) topic heading for the lock and key department unless the posts become a little more tolerant of differing opinions and the right to hold/express them peacefully. Nobody here is totally wrong. Nobody here is totally right.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Heckler » Aug 21st, '12, 12:06

Mandrake wrote:If I had a pound for every time I'd said that or something similar I could buy everyone a large G&T. Instead it's (yet another) topic heading for the lock and key department unless the posts become a little more tolerant of differing opinions and the right to hold/express them peacefully. Nobody here is totally wrong. Nobody here is totally right.



I take all of that on board and whilst I agree with it, I do think it neccessary to point out that my Dad is bigger than your Dad and could have your Dad in a fight.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby MatCult » Aug 21st, '12, 12:37

Heckler wrote:
Mandrake wrote:If I had a pound for every time I'd said that or something similar I could buy everyone a large G&T. Instead it's (yet another) topic heading for the lock and key department unless the posts become a little more tolerant of differing opinions and the right to hold/express them peacefully. Nobody here is totally wrong. Nobody here is totally right.



I take all of that on board and whilst I agree with it, I do think it neccessary to point out that my Dad is bigger than your Dad and could have your Dad in a fight.


Oh no he di-ent! It's on now. It's on like Donkey Kong.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Craig Browning » Aug 21st, '12, 15:12

Cute guys

The part that I find most interesting is how different Mentalism is treated on this side of the pond vs. your side . . . the land of skeptics and diamond bearing hind-sides.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Jean » Aug 21st, '12, 16:31

Remember when this thread was about dreamsigns? Whatever happened to that?

Invoke not reason. In the end it is too small a deity.
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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Stephen Ward » Aug 21st, '12, 19:19

i really like dreamsigns, put the work in and you will be rewarded. I have used it many times.

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Re: Dream Signs - Lybrary.com

Postby Mandrake » Aug 21st, '12, 22:36

Sounds like we're all done here?

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