Starsign-guessing?

Struggling with an effect? Any tips (without giving too much away!) you'd like to share?

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Starsign-guessing?

Postby Contrabass101 » Apr 15th, '09, 00:36



I read this passage in The Full Facts Book of Cold Reading:

For completeness, I ought to add that the magic fraternity has
developed several ways to guess (or appear to guess) a stranger's
star sign with perfect accuracy and without using the Lucky
Guess. However, such techniques fall outside the realm of cold
reading.


Can anyone expand a bit on that?

Pickpocketing a wallet, stalking at facebook/myspace, or asking a friend... these I presume are the basic techniques. But none of these seem particularly "magical"... does Rowland have something else in mind?

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Postby reformedarsonist » Apr 15th, '09, 02:38

Well how else could it be done? That's the problem with astrology - if it actually worked, there would be a way of telling from looking at somebody. Pity it's nonsense really.

It's got to be prior knowledge, really, hasn't it? For it to be absolutely foolproof, at least. That's where things like Facebook come in handy. But if that's not available, pickpocket them. Nothing wrong with that. While you're in there, I'd memorize a few other things - pictures on cards, contents etc. Looks extremely impressive, if you tell somebody what's in their wallet when you haven't been near it.

There's a thing in a book I read about how to wittle it down by letter... might have been the cold reading book, actually, or it could have been 13 steps. Basically it's quite blatant fishing, and as a result - in my opinion - it's utter rubbish, but if you just want a way to tell somebody their star sign then that might be something to look at.

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Postby Harry Guinness » Apr 15th, '09, 02:55

Theres one reviewed in the reviews section somewhere. Apparently no fishing (from specs point of view, they don't say a word). No experience with it myself but I know Blapsing Beard is working on it. Someone will remember the name if you don't go looking!

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Postby Craig Browning » Apr 15th, '09, 03:10

reformedarsonist wrote:Well how else could it be done? That's the problem with astrology - if it actually worked, there would be a way of telling from looking at somebody. Pity it's nonsense really.


Astrologer/author Linda Goodman used to get paid big money, long before her books became well known, to attend mixers and simple chat with guests. Oft times even without asking a word or any kind of communication whatsoever, you would correctly state a person's birth sign.


It's got to be prior knowledge, really, hasn't it? For it to be absolutely foolproof, at least.


I can assure you, it doesn't.

There are at least two well known systems spoken of several times in this forum alone and I can think of a good dozen other methods on the market right now that would give you this very same advantage, some better than others.

You may want to look up an effect called "What's My Sign" or visit http://www.deceptionary.com/signlanguage.html for a decent variant to that original course of thought. You will also find two variations in T.A. Waters MIND, MYTH & MAGIC and another couple in the Psychological Subtleties material by Banachek.

That's where things like Facebook come in handy. But if that's not available, pickpocket them. Nothing wrong with that. While you're in there, I'd memorize a few other things - pictures on cards, contents etc. Looks extremely impressive, if you tell somebody what's in their wallet when you haven't been near it.


Though this sort of thing has been done as a gag on stage... kind of a "Paper Wads Over the Head" routine for Mentalists, it's not something I'd encourage anyone to do. Lifting a person's wallet in today's world could end up placing you in a very ugly position even if you did it as part of a gag. The on-line network sites are also a problem in that very few people list factual, applicable information about themselves and too, most folks are savvy enough now days to figure that connection out.

There's a thing in a book I read about how to wittle it down by letter... might have been the cold reading book, actually, or it could have been 13 steps. Basically it's quite blatant fishing, and as a result - in my opinion - it's utter rubbish, but if you just want a way to tell somebody their star sign then that might be something to look at.


It's called a Progressive Anagram... see the above material for a better understanding and NO it's not in Corinda.

If it looks or feels like "blatant fishing" you're doing it wrong. If you believe it to be "utter rubbish" that's perfectly fine in that the majority of the pros I know not only use that technique with tremendous success, we've invested a good deal of time into evolving the basic idea in ways that completely conceal the fact that this is what we are doing. What's one man's trash is another man's treasure and when it comes to Progressive Anagrams, most students of mentalism view them as something priceless.

The moral of the story is make certain you know what you're talking about when you are trying to help someone out with an issue or question.

:wink:


Oh :idea: ... Take the Rowland book with a small Ukrainian Salt Mine in that the man has NEVER made a living as a professional Reader and most of what he exposes in that book is based on opinion, theory and supposed discoveries by other admitted cynics. While I do encourage people to study this book as an intermediate step when it comes to Cold Reading I cannot support the act of placing it into the hands of a novice. If you want to learn the real thing then dig into the works of Richard Webster, Bob Cassidy and Ron Martin with a touch of Herb Dewey & Brad Henderson in follow up.

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Postby reformedarsonist » Apr 15th, '09, 03:46

So there exists a way to just take one look at somebody and correctly tell them their star sign with no prior knowledge or fishing? Somebody call the JREF.

And as for the progressive anagram or whatever, I'm not doing it wrong - I'm not doing it at all. The reason I'm not doing it is because the presentation I read certainly looked like fishing, and I think most intelligent audiences would recognize it as such. If you've been working on a progression of it, that's awesome. From a purely practical viewpoint, I thought that the ability to walk up to somebody and just tell them their starsign would rely on prior knowledge that could possibly be divined from a wallet - that's the angle I'd take, anyway, and it was just my opinion. But thanks for bringing up these other methods. I'll look into them.

And besides, if they catch you stealing their wallet, you're doing it wrong.

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Postby daleshrimpton » Apr 15th, '09, 08:30

So there exists a way to just take one look at somebody and correctly tell them their star sign with no prior knowledge or fishing? Somebody call the JREF




nu.

you're like Yoda.you dont say much, but what you do say is worth listening to....
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Postby daleshrimpton » Apr 15th, '09, 08:37

it is possible to do this without fishing.

indeed the only thing a good mate of mine can do, is look at someone and not only tell them their star sign, but accuratly tell them their birthday.
no fishing that you would notice, he can just do it.

mind you, it has to be a lady.

you're like Yoda.you dont say much, but what you do say is worth listening to....
Greg Wilson about.... Me.
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Postby Jobasha » Apr 15th, '09, 10:56

Even when it is done with seemingly obvious methods or fishing it can still get very good reactions with a good performance round this. Especially if it is done on the right people. Dream signs was the version reviewed quite recently. Review linked below

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic29516.php

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Postby beetlejuiceecis » Apr 15th, '09, 11:52

Marc Paul outlines the Progressive Anagram technique mentioned above in some of his lecture notes.

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Postby Replicant » Apr 15th, '09, 12:30

There's a very nice chap over at the Café, called Matthew Shepherd, who was giving away free copies of his 34-page PDF file not too long ago. It's entitled A Beginner's Guide to Progressive Anagrams and is very good, so it might be worth looking him up and asking about it.

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Postby Craig Browning » Apr 15th, '09, 15:33

reformedarsonist wrote:So there exists a way to just take one look at somebody and correctly tell them their star sign with no prior knowledge or fishing? Somebody call the JREF.

And as for the progressive anagram or whatever, I'm not doing it wrong - I'm not doing it at all. The reason I'm not doing it is because the presentation I read certainly looked like fishing, and I think most intelligent audiences would recognize it as such. If you've been working on a progression of it, that's awesome. From a purely practical viewpoint, I thought that the ability to walk up to somebody and just tell them their starsign would rely on prior knowledge that could possibly be divined from a wallet - that's the angle I'd take, anyway, and it was just my opinion. But thanks for bringing up these other methods. I'll look into them.

And besides, if they catch you stealing their wallet, you're doing it wrong.


For starters, let's not get into the bogus million of Randi fame. It doesn't exist, it cannot be won via any LEGITIMATE mode of ACTUAL scientific testing procedure. Between the legal language of the challenge contract and the games played with data (which CSICOPS actually got caught doing at one point), not even a God could win the prize. Probably why it was formalized on APRIL FOOLS DAY. Randi is NOT the "expert" he's been promoted as being; just a angry old man with an agenda.

Secondly, you shouldn't let your own ignorance on something speak outwardly in an arrogant manner as you've done twice now on this topic. You're obviously very new to magic and I'm betting you're not much beyond your mid-20s (if that). You're full of spit & vinegar and like a brown belt in Martial Arts, have just enough information to get yourself into trouble. My suggestion being that you set aside all those books, magazines and web sites supporting all the claims spewed forth by the cynics of the world and actually step into the world of the psychic & paranormal and discover first hand what's afoot rather than regurgitating what the minister has told you to believe.

In the case of Ms. Goodman, I got this story from Richard Webster who watched her do it on more than one occasion and because of some of the circles I travel in, have heard of others that can do the same thing. I know that basic profiling methods can get you pretty much on mark when it comes to this stunt... pure observation, no interaction... and by the way, that's a "scientific" factor actually used by certain "security" groups like the CIA and FBI.

The moral of the story is, as I said before, learn about what it is you're talking about before sharing your two-cents on the subject. As you've been shown, there really are ways of doing this sort of thing just as clean as it's been described. Too, there are tools that have been used for generations (Progressive Anagrams) that probably have fooled you in the past and yet, due to your jaded perspective on things, you have robbed yourself from realizing the potential of something so simple. The truth being that most of the best magic out there is super simple and thus, eludes detection.



Before You Fire Back in defense of the Amazing Pedophile and his tax shelter I'd suggest you just do a search on the subject in that I've explained things time and again and given up evidence that support much of what I've deliberately put forth on this overrated bu**er. I needn't repeat myself and wont.

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Postby Contrabass101 » Apr 15th, '09, 15:48

Craig Browning wrote:Astrologer/author Linda Goodman used to get paid big money, long before her books became well known, to attend mixers and simple chat with guests. Oft times even without asking a word or any kind of communication whatsoever, you would correctly state a person's birth sign.

That is quite impressive.

There are at least two well known systems spoken of several times in this forum alone and I can think of a good dozen other methods on the market right now that would give you this very same advantage, some better than others.

You may want to look up an effect called "What's My Sign" or visit http://www.deceptionary.com/signlanguage.html for a decent variant to that original course of thought. You will also find two variations in T.A. Waters MIND, MYTH & MAGIC and another couple in the Psychological Subtleties material by Banachek.

I guess these are the books I should go on to read, when I've got a solid grasp of Corinda and Annemann?

The sign language thing looks interesting, and the e-book is not too expensive... yet I need to know, if the method will work in other languages as well. Where I live, star-signs are usually not named by their latin name.

Oh :idea: ... Take the Rowland book with a small Ukrainian Salt Mine in that the man has NEVER made a living as a professional Reader and most of what he exposes in that book is based on opinion, theory and supposed discoveries by other admitted cynics. While I do encourage people to study this book as an intermediate step when it comes to Cold Reading I cannot support the act of placing it into the hands of a novice. If you want to learn the real thing then dig into the works of Richard Webster, Bob Cassidy and Ron Martin with a touch of Herb Dewey & Brad Henderson in follow up.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. It just happened to be the book I stumbled upon first. :)

But thanks for a very useful response.

- CB

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Postby Reverend Tristan » Apr 15th, '09, 15:50

Craig I can't belive you just said those things about the amazing Randi he's such a nice man :lol: :wink: I cant even remember what system I've used in the past but there is more than a few nice ones out there, i've done it before clean as well, just by studying people and working out what I think they are and then growing a pair and diving in head first. But then again if I didn't hit I wouldn't mind, would just use something else to blow their little minds :D

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Postby daleshrimpton » Apr 15th, '09, 15:54

Contrabass101 wrote:I guess these are the books I should go on to read, when I've got a solid grasp of Corinda and Annemann?


- CB



Oh indeed yes. Infact i'd hazard a guess here and say that once you have both Anneman , and Corinda under your belt, you may well of found something else that will serve your purpouse. :)

As an example, i know that there are a few variations on this theme spread about jinx, both in the original magazine, ( which is available to download via the L.P.P, ( or for about 12 pounds, you can buy it from some dealers) and the new jinx, which has just been republished by Richard kaufman.
:)

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Postby TonyB » Apr 15th, '09, 16:27

After learning Max Maven's Contimental, I modified it to do star signs. It works very well. It doesn't look like fishing if you put any effort into presentation. I normally do this as a heckle-stopper. If someone reacts sceptically to an effect in my mentalist show I ask them to focus on their starsign and I tell them what it is. It stops them dead.
Progressive anagrams are a very clever technique.
I have seen a number of effects published where you can tell someones star sign, but none work as well for me as progressive anagrams.

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