talkmagic.co.uk

Hi folks,

I've been playing around with some card magic (recently started on the Royal Road) for a few months now - though today I've started down a new path. My girlfriend, after I mentioned that I'd like to learn it MONTHS ago, bought me a set of aluminium cups and crocheted balls. (She gave me the Bazar de Magia ones sold at Alakazam with one gimmicked cup and ball for chop cup).

I've spent a few hours today with a table (towel covered suitcase on a keyboard stand - a really nice working height for a lanky bu**er like myself) set up practising a few things I've seen done before. What a cracking gift - it would have been a long time before I bought myself a set but since I got them I haven't touched a deck of cards or the Royal Road!

Anyway - on with the point of this whole post...

When I was in Edinburgh I saw Todd Various perform the Cups and Balls on the Royal Mile (in fact, I went back the next day and watched again). Probably the best cups and balls I've seen to date. He told me about Gazzo, and it's my intention to buy his DVD. Can anyone suggest another DVD that's worth getting?

I'd like to learn/create a routine that doesn't need a pouch to work, but isn't just a really basic thing like found in most common-or-garden magic books.

So, Gazzo for insulting all and sundry and working with a pouch...
...but what for something a bit more polite and without the need for the pouch?
Knowing me I'll take a bit from here there and everywhere, and add some of myself too. I'm not averse to taking the mickey out of someone in good spirit... but seeing something a bit more sedate than the Gazzo approach would be nice to learn from too.

I'm open to suggestions of books as well as DVDs - though DVDs are nice to see complete moves rather than static pictures, I'm not afraid of paper and I'm thoroughly enjoying the Royal Road to Card Magic with its illustrations.

Thanks for taking the time to read this, I'm looking forwards to hearing what you've got to say!

Hi BigShot.

Michael Ammar has great dvds and books on the cups and balls. His 'The Complete Cups and Balls' is available in book form as well as dvd, and is probably the best source for learning this classic. As well as your cups id suggest getting yourself a wand. Although not absolutely essential i think it adds alot to the routine and can help with your misdirection. There are some wand techniques explained there aswell, including the famous Vernon/Mora vanish. jim

Will this be THIRD time lucky? I think my computer is in the process of dying as it is crashing in increasingly strange ways, and as I'm not using Windows I don't believe it is caused by malware. This could get expensive! I sincerely hope I don't have to type this reply up AGAIN.

You were quick off the mark with the Reply button, Jim, thanks for the warm welcome.

I like the idea of using a wand, as you say, it adds an extra dimension that I quite like.

I'm sure there's a drumstick around here that I could use until I find something a bit more wand-like. Maybe I'll just find some pretty wood and turn one up on my lathe. Who knows?

Thanks for the DVD/Book suggestion, I just checked Ammar out on the wonder that is YouTube - WOW! His patter, delivery and presentation are absolutely incredible. I think I'll probably save up my pennies for the book and the DVD along with the Gazzo one.

I can't wait to get started now.

Thanks again for the welcome and the advice.

Tommy Wonder's cup/ball routine gets my vote, and it's all explained on volume 1 of the excellent Visions of Wonder DVDs. As well as a bunch of other stuff that will blow your head off. It's on YouTube, the performance, and is pretty much the only cups and balls bit that I can be bothered to watch.

madvillainy wrote:Tommy Wonder's cup/ball routine gets my vote, and it's all explained on volume 1 of the excellent Visions of Wonder DVDs. As well as a bunch of other stuff that will blow your head off. It's on YouTube, the performance, and is pretty much the only cups and balls bit that I can be bothered to watch.

Hi MadV. I agree Tommy Wonders routine is exellent, and is one of my favourites too (along with Ammar, Michael Vincent, Ricky Jay and a few others). However i dont really think it is suitable for someone who has just started learning the cups. A good understanding of misdirection is essential to this routine and i have yet to see anyone who can pull it off as well as Tommy Wonder himself.

What i like about the Complete Cups and Balls, and why i recommend it, is that it teaches everything, from the basic fundamentals to advanced wand techniques and misdirection. They are suitable for anyone who wishes to learn the cups and balls no matter what their level or experience. They are also a great resource if you are wanting to design your own routine. jim

Thanks again for some good responses.

MadV - I watched the Tommy Wonder routine on YouTube after reading your post and I can see why you suggested it! It's great to add another good routine to the list of ones I've seen and like. I can see why youi suggested it.

I'm sure I'll get the Visions of Wonder DVD at some point, but after reading Jim's response to your post I'm leaning towards the Complete Cups and Balls. Have you got anything to sell the Visions DVD over that one?

Ha - I'm making it sound like some sort of competition or auction now!

"I've got fundamentals to advanced wand and misdirection from the Scot, and advance from you, sir?"
Going once.
Going twice...

David Regal also has a very nice take on this where the cheap set of cups end up under the nice set. The presentation is great and there is also a ton of nice magic in it also.

The ammar dvds are great! He doesnt give you much patter or script, so the routine is yours to mould!

Learning the Cups and Balls can be a lifetime's journey, and one with some spectactular views. However, it is not a trivial matter either. There are many sides to the routine, and it does require a lot of studied practice. (In the interests of full disclosure, I spend an awful lot of time with Todd).

As for learning resources, several of the better ones have been mentioned. I don't want to discourage you, but it sounds like you are fairly new to magic and I would advise that you stay away from the Wonder routine for a while. There are so many layers to it that if it is approached without the required grounding in sleights and misdirection you run the risk of making a mess.

The Ammar book is good (I've not seen the videos, but by all accounts they are the same as the book). There is a large amount of information and a structured path which lets you learn as you progress. The only downside is that I believe the book may be out of print and hard to find.

On a video side there is also the Pete Wardell DVD Crowdpuller which is an excellent resource for all things street, but Pete does use a gib.

If you want a smorgasboard of routines, L&L have one of their compilation DVDs on the cups, with many routines. You'll be sure to find a suitable selection of moves in that.

Finally, I'm in the middle of preparing my own detailed lesson on the Cups and Balls, which should be available in a few months.

Take care, Ian

And here was me thinking this thread was over!


Ben.
Some might not like it, but I like the "no patter or script" idea - you just made me even more keen to get those discs.


Finney.
I'm about to hit the sack so not now, but I'll be sure to look up David Regal and see if I can find a video of his rendition. It sounds interesting for sure.


Ian.
Thanks for the detailed response.

When my girlfriend gave me this set of cups for Christmas I told her it would be a long time before I showed her what 'd come up with. I said something to the effect of "I believe it's one of those tricks you can learn quickly but take a lifetime to perfect it."
As it happens I put together something simple with some very basic sleights - but now that she's seen that, my cups are staying out of the public eye until I've got something I'm happy with - I think that will take quite a while.

Your comment about staying away from the Wonder routine was far from discouraging. You're dead right that I'm new to this, but fortunately I'm not keen to get ahead of myself either. I'm working on some of the basics now, playing around with crotcheted balls, table tennis balls, coins and cards while I work just to get used to handling. It'll be a long road before I'm capable of the kind of things done by Wonder, Ammar and the likes. Misdirection is another issue too - I'm still making a conscious effort to look at the right hand after false passes, French drops and the likes - the most basic element of misdirection needed for something as brazen (I think it was Ammar) openly placing a ball on a cup while misdirecting with the wand seem a long... long way away.

Thanks for the Wardell DVD suggestion. I do enjoy street performance (I've done it before with a couple of non-magical acts) and that's definitely on the horizon so that'll be going on my shopping list.

If you remember, please send me a PM or something when your lesson is available. I can't promise I'll get it right away but I'll definitely put it on the list too.


Thanks very much again for the further responses and all the new info.
It still excites me to see new takes on the cups. It all makes me want to practice even more!

All the best!

Bill Palmer is the go to guy for all things history related to C&B routines and props.

.robb. wrote:Bill Palmer is the go to guy for all things history related to C&B routines and props.

I'll second that, if you are interested in the history of the cups and balls Bills Cups and Balls Museum is worth a visit. Its password protected but anyone can ask for access (you recieve your password via email).

Bigshot, while were on the subject of history there are sections scattered through the Michael Ammar dvds, that are presented by Bob Read who shows many rare prints from his collection, and talks about the history of the effect jim

IanKendall wrote:

Learning the Cups and Balls can be a lifetime's journey, and one with some spectactular views. However, it is not a trivial matter either. There are many sides to the routine, and it does require a lot of studied practice. (In the interests of full disclosure, I spend an awful lot of time with Todd)............... and so on

What a great post filled with common sense.

Forget all of the DVD's etc. that have been recommended. You need to start out with the basics and not jump straight into advanced routines.

Apart from Ammar, I'd also recommend you taking a look at Karl Fulves cups and balls book which will teach you all of the basics and then move on when you've perfected them.

Good luck