NLP

Struggling with an effect? Any tips (without giving too much away!) you'd like to share?

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Postby trashmanf » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:31 pm



wonderful post misj and worth the long read ;)

I am definitely going to check out some of these reads, thanks for the "beginner" suggestions.

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Re: hypnotizing your friends

Postby misjief » Sat Jun 02, 2007 6:51 am

Actually Hypnosis is very easy if the person is motivated....

My friends are horse's arses about it. Forget about it.

If you insist .... there is always the frying pan induction. it is a sure thing!
Tell them to close their eyes .... then haul off and wack em' with a pan!
the induction isn't the problem it but the emergence is!

If you do one - the rest of them will fall into place and take you more seriously. Kind of drastic tho! =P

-misj

PS- I have a whole bunch of stuff. Links and the like let me see what I can find and post without getting into trouble.

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Postby misjief » Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:45 am

Here is a quick primer on embedded commands....
in the English language there is three tonalities.

\ a drop in tonality
Commanding - used to demand compliance - (parent to child)

- a neutral tonality
Content - used to rely information

/ a rise in tonality
questioning - used to request information.

a pregnant pause - is a long lull, used to separate content from embed.

An analog marker is a body language signal - like an raised eyebrow or the like to used to further distinguish and highlight the command. use it when you drop a command.

That will have to do for now....

The idea is that you can string a set of words together and send secret messages via body language using tonality. it by passes their critical faculty and enters the sub-c.

You can go overboard with it and end up sounding weird but it does work.

Here is the line without the tonality markers....
"Hello sunshine! What a gorgeous day to be alive. Makes you feel good inside"

Here it is with the markers.
"-Hello \sunshine! -what a \gorgeous .... -day to be alive. makes \you feel good inside'

-neutral \drop -return \drop (pause and reach out/ point) -return to normal - \drop tonality

Sounds insipid - but it works try it

The following is a cheat sheet I wrote for using nlp for flirting....
I couldn't post it as an attachment so I cut and pasted the whole darn thing.

I am off to bed!

******
Embedded Commands

Correct Tonality with a Strategic Pause, an Analog Maker & Supportive Body Language
Creates a POWERFUL Embedded Command … Tonality alone is relatively “weak” emphasis.


1. Remember over our lives & others we have little actual control… & a vast amount of influence!
2. Successful Embeds are simply a sequence of … Accepted Associations! A series of links in a chain!
3. Pause before & after dropping commands. Be natural, Smile, Take a drink, mull over thoughts.
4. Change volume appropriately to add further importance. Lower with intimacies – louder otherwise.
5. Use a Parental & Commanding Tone - Lower pitch when giving commands (Conditioned Response).
6. Emotionally ‘color’ the command with the tone of voice. (A sexy, sultry, secretive tone for seduction)
7. Use Analog Marking (Body Language) to visually reinforce commands - Raise eyebrow & like.
8. Use strong eye contact when giving commands - Gaze rather then stare; Tilt the head to soften it.
9. Use Proximitics (Intimate Space). Good rapport; close gap to seal the deal! Else; physically move!
10. Use Haptics (Human Touch) to make “appropriate” contact! - Left and back of hand is less intrusive!
11. Commands should be Concise. Use complete sentences for razor sharpness. 2 to 4 words max.
12. Use the present & active tense for maximum impact. Remember, for the sub-c the only time is NOW!
13. Talk slowly & quietly - Talk 40% Slower… Hypnotic = 45-60 beats Content 130-170 beats min.
14. Use A Positive, Affirmative Perspective - “Hold on to it” Rather then “Do not drop it”
15. Keep a “Tight focus” - Have a specific goal in mind, zoom in on it and stay with it and it alone. (Zen)
16. Small Details make a big difference! Explain & expand the topic using all six senses (#6 = balance!)
17. Lead the way! Mentally go there & describe it in vivid detail from THAT space. (Pacing and leading)
18. Imply as to involve their imagination in a rehearsal of shared expectations. (Ambiguity)
19. Make it a custom fit with relevance - Tie into & affirm her values, self-image, & dreams.
20. Emphasis her name often. Serves as a directive; while Nicknames serve as verbal anchor. !Not trance!
21. Use HER Keywords to keep conversation moving in the “Right” direction. (Visual/Audio/Kinesthetic)
22. Embeds should reflect her inner thoughts – keying on her words, using her sensory sys.
23. Always emphasis the word “You”- Sincere but subliminal complements! (Affirmations)
24. Synergy! Words that presuppose unity should be emphasized - Us; We; Together. !Not trance!
25. Initially start with weak links & build up to full rapport (See Momentum rule below)
26. Chain commands; A single command holds sway for about 4 minutes, unless further reinforced
27. The conscious mind can track 7(+/-2) thoughts before becoming overloaded. Confusion = Trance.
28. Entice & invite experience rather then ‘demand’ - Pull them in, after you rather then push before you.
29. Beware of your bias! Believe absolutely you are going to succeed or don’t bother. - You go first!
30. Flow! Force Nothing! Change what you can, & use what you can’t immediately to good advantage
31. Ignore the negative, by actively encouraging the positive response. (Passive Leading-Mirroring).
32. Visualize your energy – and complete a circuit with her. Create a sensitive feedback loop.

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Postby AndyRegs » Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:29 am

I'm very dubious about this NLP lark. Yes there is some truth in it, but they are the parts that are so obvious that everyone knows (i.e. you dont have to pay to go on a stupidly expensive course).
The rest is very questionable. Bandler and grinder with not not neuroscientists, and so I find it hard to take some of their claims serious. There is also no proof that it works.
I have met a lot of people who are apparently NLP master practicioners. You would think their people skills would be excellent, but they just come over as strnage and overbearing.
Added to that is the fact that anyone can become a master practicioner...just as long as they pay a lot of money to go on a short course in which everybody passes. All you need to learn then is a bunch a magic tricks (walking on coals, light arm/heavy arm/full body catalepsy etc), and the believers will follow.
NLP is not a science, although many NLP practicioners will claim it to be so, but a new age cult, no different from the likes of scientology.

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Postby Markdini » Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:00 pm

As I put Ormond Mcgill's huge tome aside for a second. I concour with misjief with some points. . I wont go in to anything about test and inductions seek and shall find your selfs. But the more the person is open to the fact you can do this thats half the battle.

If no one knows who you are and what you do you cant just click your fingers and say sleep. Well you can and probably wont work 99.9% of time.

Although IMHO that just epmphisiing a word and praying this will work you wont get far. "you will feel cold" wont work well it wont work for me it may for you.

I am master of misdirection, look over there.

We are not falling out young Welshy, we are debating, I think farlsy is an idiot he thinks I am one. We are just talking about who is the bigger idiot.

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Postby zeke » Wed May 13, 2009 9:01 am

Jordan C wrote:I have a problem with Hypnosis. Namely that my friends all think they are comedians so the few times I have tried Hypnosis it juus degenerates into a farce. Any tips for keeping said friends under test conditions???


i have some tips based on the following:

1. your friends who think they're comedians also probably think they're very intelligent, reasonable people.
2. given #1, these friends of yours probably think they're above hypnosis because their minds are "too strong" or some nonsense like that.

in order to hypnotize people like this, you need to keep the following in mind:

1. hypnosis relies on a trance -- that focused state of concentration.
2. if you can focus your friends, you can hypnotize them.

your attempts are, as you say, "degenerating into a farce" because you're not truly captivating them or focusing their concentration. I'm guessing you're trying fundamental techniques to help them get relaxed (imagery, double binds, etc.), but it's clear that they're not susceptible to these basic suggestions.

given that your friends apparently enjoy entertaining their own intellect at your expense, you can begin to entrance them (focus their concentration, hypnotize them, etc.) by teaching them about something interesting that will pique their curiosity and stimulate their intellect... so why not teach them about hypnosis?

begin to describe the fundamental theories of hypnosis, interject your own hypotheses, and all the while make use of those very theories and techniques that you're explaining to them WHILE you're doing the explaining.

i've found this to be incredibly effective. let me give you a sample situation that i walked a friend through once (i save transcripts of these interactions, so i can come back and learn from them later):

ZEKE: Frank, what if I told you that each and every person -- no matter his or her ethnicity, sex, beliefs, or background -- was equally vulnerable to being covertly hypnotized at any given time without his or her knowing?

FRANK: Zeke, I'd say that we'd live in a crazy world where people were walking around all the time all hypnotized, not knowing what they were doing. Guys would take advantage of girls...

ZEKE: [Cut off Frank:] How would you describe people who are hypnotized? [Cut off Frank with forced/suggested answer:] You'd say they were in a trance, right?

FRANK: Yeah, that's right.

ZEKE: [More cutting off:] And how would you describe a trance? [More cutting off:] You'd say they were so focused that they'd become vulnerable to influence by others over their thoughts and actions, such that they might do or think things they otherwise would not?

FRANK: Right.

ZEKE: Would you not say that such is the world we do live in? Think about advertising, for example, or girls who end up in situations that logically or reasonably are negative, like with 'bad' guys.

FRANK: Good point...

you can see that I'm sitting here explaining to Frank fundamental truths of hypnosis, but I'm also making use of several hypnotic techniques in the process. most obviously, i set him up with a loaded "yes set" by proposing very thought-provoking questions, but i didn't let him attempt answers to those questions; i quickly cut him off, planted intriguing answers, and let him agree (how could he have not agreed?).

it stands that i didn't take advantage of my position in this situation to accomplish something, but i could have easily used this rapport to push Frank further into trust, relaxation, and ultimately a hypnotic trance.

summary: like Erickson would've done, use your subjects' resistance to your advantage. your friends trust in their own intellect, so entertain it while you entrance them.

hope this helps,
Zeke

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Postby Robbie » Fri May 15, 2009 6:37 pm

misjief wrote:in the English language there is three tonalities.

\ a drop in tonality
Commanding - used to demand compliance - (parent to child)

- a neutral tonality
Content - used to rely information

/ a rise in tonality
questioning - used to request information.

Be careful with sweeping statements on tonality. One of the biggest differences between English dialects (such as US and UK English) is the difference in tonal pattern. In fact, if you can master the tonality of an English dialect, you'll often be mistaken for a native speaker, even if your basic pronunciation doesn't change.

For instance, UK English usually uses a complex rising-falling tone to indicate a question, rather than a pure rise. The US pattern of a straight rise to a high final plateau sounds over-excited to the UK ear.

Your NLP tips boil down to being a good listener and using some basic principles of reinforcement (see any textbook on behavioural analysis).

I HATE it when people use my name when speaking to me. Especially if they keep using it. (We're already in conversation, you don't have to keep calling me like a dog.) I think you'll find most people dislike being called by name over and over again. Even at best, it smacks of high-pressure salesmanship and makes people suspect a scam.

A lot of people (including me again) greatly dislike being touched, especially by strangers. The same with being closely approached. I don't know where you're based, but the UK culture includes very strong rules about privacy and personal space. (Watching the English by Kate Fox is terrific on this point.)

(I also hate making eye contact, but that's probably the Asperger's talking.)

Put it this way. If a total stranger came up to me, introduced himself by name and asked what my name was, and wanted to shake hands, that would be REALLY creepy. I would be on serious alert and planning to duck out as soon as possible.

"Magic teaches us how to lie without guilt." --Eugene Burger
"Hi, Robbie!" "May your mischief be spread." --Derren Brown
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Postby madvillainy » Fri May 15, 2009 8:36 pm

I'm hugely skeptical of NLP - I think it is ultimately well-meaning, and is based upon some interesting principles but the more fantastic claims seem a little dubious and the more reliable stuff is based on common sense.

I've read the first two books from way back when, don't go near the modern stuff - has a weird cult-ish vibe to it that I find a tad distasteful.

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Postby IAIN » Fri May 15, 2009 8:47 pm

just buy NLP for dummies for less than a tenner..it covers all the good bits from NLP...

then maybe pick up "my voice will go with you", and the two vols of pattern of a hypnotic mind (i think thats what it was called)..

the thing about body language is how easily it can be misinterpreted...imagine you're looking for a tell to see if im lying...

the tell is i touch my nose or ear when i tell that lie...

but what if, when im telling the truth, I'm thinking to myself "ooooh, my ear feels a bit itchy!"...you've labelled me a dirty old liar just cos of an itch...

some of the earlier stuff is useful, and for me, thats what i re-read...

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Postby magicofthemind » Sat May 16, 2009 8:38 am

The book I always recommend is "NLP Workbook" by Joseph O'Connor.

It's a bit meaningless to think of NLP as either complete nonsense or the best thing since sliced bread. It's a collection of concepts and techniques, many of which have no or little connection with each other. Language patterns are only a part of it, as are eye-movement cues or anchoring. All these have their uses.

Barry

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Postby Hellcat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:24 pm

Nlp is fantastic in my opinion, although i have never used it in any magic. i have, however, cured a few phobias on different people, done a few of the comedy tricks like sticking them to something, making them unable to bend their arm, made a waitress orgasm with a salt pot (now thats a great trick)

best person to look into regarding NLP would be Richard Bandler (who created it) he has a few DVD's of his seminars out (although they are quite expensive) but he explains it better than anyone.

also, for rapport, "instant rapport" by Micheal Brookes is definately the way to go. very in-depth book on rapport, i have seen none better.

I would be happy to discuss NLP with anyone that wants more info via PM or MSN, although i should point out that i have no professional qual's in this area, just a great interest, and knowledge i have researched and learnt myself, with great results.

Rick.

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Postby Infinite » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:32 pm

For those that just want an intro to hypnotism.

You can use http://www.hypnosis.edu

They give a free course which covers the basics of hypnosis and relaxation method.

Not NLP perse but they do teach NLP there in a distance course. Basically anything by Milton Erickson who was the person they modeled to build NLP is good.


You sign up but the free course really is free they don't really bug you after that.

--Will

Last edited by Infinite on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IAIN » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:33 pm

Hellcat wrote:made a waitress orgasm with a salt pot (now thats a great trick)


where did you put the salt pot? or was it a euphamism?

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Postby Hellcat » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:45 pm

Hi Iain. basically i got her to recall the feeling through patter etc, and anchored it to the salt pot using whats known as a "sliding anchor". in the end, the closer i push the salt pot towards her, the more intense the feeling becomes, and visa versa :D

I also wanted to point out in my last post about rapid induction techniques for hypnosis. a lot of the time, it works great. iv only had it fail once (when it fails, you look pretty stupid though :oops: ). very quick and easy once the basic principles are understood, worth looking into.

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Postby Contrabass101 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:27 pm

Something I see with some proponents of NLP, hypnosis, body language, personality tests/types - and for that matter religion or politics - is that their particular field of interest becomes The One Thing. By that I mean, that it is not enough to say that NLP can cure phobias (as it indeed can), but it suddenly becomes the answer to all life's questions. NLP will save your marriage, cure your diseases, get you a promotion and make your life a bed of roses.

While in fact, that affair of yours may have screwed up your marriage for good, your cancer is incurable and your workplace shut down due to the recess. One should always be on guard, when someone claims to have found the Philosophers' Stone of a trouble-free life.

I think this may be what another poster called a "cultish vibe", as you find it in some extremist religious groups such as Word of Faith, Scientology etc. A practicing Roman Catholic myself, I have no beef with religion in general, and I believe divine intervention is actually a possibility, but it does not change the fact for me, that doctors are the natural place to go, when your break a leg, hypnotist when you are afraid of mushrooms, and the priest when you have a burdened conscience. So, yeah... not an attack on religion in general.

Same with hypnosis, it has legitimate clinical (and stage :D ) uses, but if you become a "Christian Scientist" and start believing that all illnesses can be cured by the right mindset, or (as infamously seen on Penn&Teller*) that hypnosis can be used for penis enlargement or cancer treatment, you better check your facts.

Copying body language or parroting phrases is not a substitute for being nice to people. If you genuinely find the other person interesting, it will shine through. If you listen to other people, you will realize, that we do not all perceive the world the same way, regardless of whether you can stick labels such as "visual", "kinetic", "extroverted" etc on them. NLP is largely mirroring ( :wink: ) the way we naturally interact with people we like.

When taken in moderation and applied critically, NLP holds some valuable tools. There is no need to buy or reject the whole package. Common sense goes a long way :)

- CB

*Disclaimer: I use it merely as an example. Whether P&T present the case truthfully, I do not know (I doubt it, but it was fun to watch ;) )

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