talkmagic.co.uk

mrgoat wrote:Oh it's nonsense. Every test has proven it's no more effective than a sugar pill. And the science behind it is utter ballderdash. Water has a memory? And you have such a small amount of the herb that has the properties you seek that there isn't even a TRACE amount of it in the water?

You took my first sentence out of context. I was saying it's NOT nonsense if you take into account the placebo effect!

See new thread for some clinical examples of hypnosis use.

Wishmaster wrote:You took my first sentence out of context. I was saying it's NOT nonsense if you take into account the placebo effect!

See new thread for some clinical examples of hypnosis use.

Nothing is nonsense if you take into account the placebo effect!

Reading the research now. Cheers.

mrgoat wrote:That's lovely. What I wanted, was peer-reviewed, properly researched studies published in a proper journal.

Google is your friend here, mate. It's time to start working for your answers.

Wishmaster wrote:I wouldn't dismiss homeopathy as nonsense so quickly.

I would, unequivocally, as the objective nonsense it is. However, subjective experience by somoene predisposed to believing in it is another placebo effect entirely.

Tomo wrote:

mrgoat wrote:That's lovely. What I wanted, was peer-reviewed, properly researched studies published in a proper journal.

Google is your friend here, mate. It's time to start working for your answers.

I tried, mate.

I would have thought that people that believed in it would be chomping at the bit to show me the most recent New Scientist or Nature article that proves it all works?

Would have thought that the inbuilt search functions of such sites would have yielded some results? Nope. Broader searches of the science and nature sections of broadsheets? Nope.

So maybe I'm just not driving google right but I can't find not a single double blind piece of research that is peer-reviewed and published in a respected magazine that shows hypnosis or NLP has any effect above that of a sugar pill.

The silence, and sarcasm, leveled at such a simple request speaks volumes though. Sadly.

mrgoat wrote:I tried, mate.

I would have thought that people that believed in it would be chomping at the bit to show me the most recent New Scientist or Nature article that proves it all works?

Would have thought that the inbuilt search functions of such sites would have yielded some results? Nope. Broader searches of the science and nature sections of broadsheets? Nope.

So maybe I'm just not driving google right but I can't find not a single double blind piece of research that is peer-reviewed and published in a respected magazine that shows hypnosis or NLP has any effect above that of a sugar pill.

The silence, and sarcasm, leveled at such a simple request speaks volumes though. Sadly.

Why does it bother you so much? After all, you can completely ignore the whole subject and nothing bad will happen to anyone on account of it.

Tomo wrote: Why does it bother you so much? After all, you can completely ignore the whole subject and nothing bad will happen to anyone on account of it.

There's lots of things we could ignore...but:

It bothers me when people believe in things there is no proof of.

It bothers me if people take (a great deal) money from people for selling them a sugar pill.

It bothers me when the vulnerable and desperate put hope in something surrounded by sketchy research.

Hope that helps clarify and justify my interest in this.

mrgoat wrote:There's lots of things we could ignore...but:

It bothers me when people believe in things there is no proof of.

It bothers me if people take (a great deal) money from people for selling them a sugar pill.

It bothers me when the vulnerable and desperate put hope in something surrounded by sketchy research.

Hope that helps clarify and justify my interest in this.

Well, your interest is far stronger than mine, and I'm looking from the other side of it, so to speak.

Well it appears that Wish and I have access to similar resources.

However as I am ultiamtely a scientist at heart I can at least appreciate where Mr Goat is coming from.

However we are unlikely to satisfy you MrGoat because we don't have access to the AMA's research digests because we are not doctors.

We are also not here to prove that Hypnosis or NLP actually work.

However... here is a nice link to people who talk about all the studies regarding hypnosis analgesia.

http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

Your going to have to do your own research to satisfy your own misgivings.

I have referrals from Doctors and a nice relationship with two professional medical organizations. IF there is no clear medical reason for some things then Hypnosis does help.

--Infy

Actually,

I really think you are using google wrong.

I've gotten 600 hits of double blind clinical trial using hypnosis for various reasons.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&clie ... is&spell=1

(US google)

Most of which are located at:

http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00798642

A whole site to clinical trials which you can put in "hypnosis" and have a blast.


I poked one of my doctor friends.

--Infy

Infinite wrote:Well it appears that Wish and I have access to similar resources.

However as I am ultiamtely a scientist at heart I can at least appreciate where Mr Goat is coming from.

However we are unlikely to satisfy you MrGoat because we don't have access to the AMA's research digests because we are not doctors.

We are also not here to prove that Hypnosis or NLP actually work.

However... here is a nice link to people who talk about all the studies regarding hypnosis analgesia.

http://www.institute-shot.com/hypnosis_pain_utility.htm

Your going to have to do your own research to satisfy your own misgivings.

I have referrals from Doctors and a nice relationship with two professional medical organizations. IF there is no clear medical reason for some things then Hypnosis does help.

--Infy

That's pretty much what I said in the other thread Infy. I think mrgoat is simply here to pick to pieces anything and everything, whether it's empirical or not. I have better things to do with my time than try proving something that's already proved.

If mrgoat would like to do some research, go right ahead. I've lost all interest in someone who doesn't really want the answers and is using this as a platform to deride and argue for the sake of arguing.

Can I just point out, one million years after everyone else has lost interest and left the room, that the placebo effect is still a theory and is not proven. I've banged on about this before so I won't repeat myself. But I do wish people would not just assume things sometimes. And for the record I understand that Homeopathy is the biggest load of foam balls ever. Prove me wrong.

Ted wrote:Can I just point out, one million years after everyone else has lost interest and left the room, that the placebo effect is still a theory and is not proven. I've banged on about this before so I won't repeat myself. But I do wish people would not just assume things sometimes. And for the record I understand that Homeopathy is the biggest load of foam balls ever. Prove me wrong.

The theory of gravity still isn't proven. In the land of Science theory's are in fact more powerful than anything else.

A theory as stated by the scientific method indicates a hypothesis that has been challenged and refined until all explainable observations are met.

For proof of homeopathy you can look at Acupuncture which has been tested and tested and always comes out on top. So it doesn't really matter WHERE the needles are put in or even by who but they do have a measurable effect.

--Infy

mrgoat wrote:It bothers me when the vulnerable and desperate put hope in something surrounded by sketchy research.
.

Have you ever thought some people may put hope into something because they have nothing else...................we all have to believe something and aslong as that something is true to us...true in our hearts it does not matter as it will not hurt anyone else.

Infinite wrote:For proof of homeopathy you can look at Acupuncture which has been tested and tested and always comes out on top. So it doesn't really matter WHERE the needles are put in or even by who but they do have a measurable effect.

--Infy

It doesn't.

"Closer to home for homeopathy, a review of trials of acupuncture of backpain showed that the studies which were properly blinded showed a TINY benefit for acupuncture which was not statistically significant. Meanwhile, the trials which were not blinded - the ones where the patients knew whether they were in the treatment group or not - showed a massive benefit for acupuncture"

Bad Science, Ben Goldacre p47

This the the essence of my interest. When you actually look at what people claim is proof, it very often isn't.