Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby Johnny Wizz » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:01 pm



Predicting the future accurately is impossible.

Using a Tarot deck to offer a possible scenario for the future is fun.

It's nothing else It isn't real and actually believing that it is I am afraid is moving in to the realms of mental illness!

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:28 pm

Do you honestly think I of all people am mentally ill? I would have thought it perfectly obvious that I was an intellectual powerhouse! Of course there is an oft quoted saying that there is a thin line between madness and genius so you may have a point.

On the other hand I am quite convinced that I have done more Tarot readings than everyone else on this forum COMBINED. I probably do more on one weekend that most people do in an entire year. Thousands upon thousands of readings day in and day out since 1987 so I do know something about the subject.

I don't do fake readings like a lot of magicians do. It is far better and more accurate to do it for real. But I don't believe it is a strange angel from the spirit world that makes the readings real. There is a valid scientific reason that I haven't the energy to explain which makes it work. It isn't the cards themselves. They are merely a tool to trigger off what I would call "heightened intuition" which is all that psychic ability really is. When you get as experienced as me you get hunches and gut feelings regarding certain situations but it is the images on the cards which trigger them off.

Quite frankly a lot of the stuff on the market for magicians (and I concede that I have not read all of it) is utter bilge. I laugh when I read 90% of it. Full of trickery and fraudulent, not to say unnecessary "cold reading". You don't need any of that stuff. Just use your intuition and gut feelings about a situation combined with your knowledge of what the cards mean plus combining relaxation of the mind with some metaphysical knowledge and you will be on the right track. And know how to plant seeds of motivation and positive energy to make your predictions come true because of the "self fulfilling prophecy" aspect of things.

When you get to my level the readings are not "fun". You are not there to have "fun". You are there to show compassion and help people to the best of your ability. However, if all you are capable of are 5 minute "entertainment" readings at a party or event all power to you but it is not advanced work and I do agree that THIS is not the real thing.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby Tap » Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:56 pm

Mark,

When a topic turns personal, we stop talking about the topic itself, and start talking about each other instead. Myself, Johnny Wizz and anyone else expressing their opinion about tarot, readings, etc. is doing just that-expressing their welcome opinion.

If you take someone's opinion and make it against you personally, you are going to be offended if you don't agree with their opinion. Just remember, there is a difference between an opinion about a topic, and an opinion about a person.

Let's try to stick more to opinions about the fun topics we all gather here to enjoy with each other.

All:

Magic has enough problems with public image as it is. I doubt the mods believe this public forum should be used to make things worse for us all. Not my call, but maybe 1:1 issues should be resolved in PM...

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:39 am

I don't remember saying a single negative word about Johnny Wizz. And of course everyone is welcome to their opinion no matter how wrong it may be. I thought the conversation was perfectly civil. If anything I have been the soul of decorum and did not take offence at Johnny's implication that I was mentally ill. After all, I am renowned for my tact and diplomacy.

I am merely expounding on the subject on which I am a professional and on which others of lesser experience may wish to take advantage of my great knowledge in these matters.

I have gone over my posts and do not see where I have become "personal". I have offered ethical advice to those who may or may not wish to take advantage of it. I have been challenged on the credibility of an ancient divination system and I have endeavored to explain to those who have not studied the matter in sufficient depth how it works.

I have tried to explain the difference between fake "entertainment" readings and the more genuine methods of doing serious readings using heightened intuiton. Alas it appears that not everyone is ready for enlightenment and that of course is entirely their prerogative.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby Tap » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:30 am

Here is an example of using the imagery of a tarot deck, more or less loosely, for a 'trick' or more like a 'routine':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtW7C0ZnWeg" target="_blank

There are indifferent cards and the 'calling card', which I think is clever. This is in the rough neighborhood (ha!) of what can be done to vary card routines. Stories with cards are very interesting to specs. It keeps their attention-even kids, much better than trying to see the method of a quick sleight. True, this example is self-working, but to be honest would every single person seeing it even know they were cards also used in the game of tarocchi?

I would like to develop a story (or several) that combined with sleight, would entertain. I'm not even talking about anything divinatory or predictive, but simply using the imagery of the tarocchi deck to enhance, or even create a new, routine/story. Since the cards are an extended version of the standard 52, even self-working tricks with no sleight should be possible.

But simply doing a routine/illusion with the minors of a tarocchi deck instead of a standard playing card deck, using just the numbers & suits with no nod/acknowledgement of the imagery, seems to miss the point of using such storied images.

Thoughts?

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby russpie » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:26 am

I agree that the stories which tarot cards can lend themselves to within magic tricks can be seen by audiences to be quite interesting. There's certainly an oldy worldy mystical feel to them.

I also agree with Johnny I'm afraid too, a deck of cards can be shuffled & the resulting deck would have never been in that order before. It doesn't mean that some higher being has made you stop shuffling at that particular point & it doesn't mean that the resulting cards dealt off to 'read' are there for any reason other than chance. And that is before we get into the realm of what the reader has been taught/researched on what tarot cards are supposed to mean, add onto that the influence of how they choose to interpret all the cards together & their connection with the other dealt out cards.

In my view it's as far out there as tea leaves, star signs, crystal balls & phrenology. I think telling someone what your interpretation of something which can very easily influence their life choices is dangerous ground. As I said, my opinion & I do appreciate your contribution to magic, I hope it's not taken personally but it seems tarot cards like Ouija boards were created as a game, nothing more.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby JohnnyMac » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:46 am

mark lewis wrote:I don't do fake readings like a lot of magicians do. It is far better and more accurate to do it for real.


Hi Mark,

How do you handle the situation when the Death card does actually turn up in your readings? I can imagine it's not a great moment for the person who's having the reading.

John

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:22 am

The death card often comes up and I rather like it when it does! It is actually a good card! It means the death of the old and the beginning of the new. The end of one cycle in a person's life and the start of a new cycle. Oddly enough I am quite surprised by the number of clients who are not fazed by it one bit. Many of them ALREADY know that it means renewal and a new start.

This is how I handle it. I might say something like this. I simply say, "oh, by the way the death card does not mean physical death. It means renewal-the death of the old-the beginning of the new. In other words a new start. It can actually be a good card. If someone is about to emigrate they get the death card, if they get a new job they get the death card, if they are about to get married they get the death card, oh and if they are about to get divorced they always get the death card!" This last line about divorce always gets a good laugh and lightens the mood.

I then explain how the death card represents their own individual situation according to the cards surrounding it combined with my own intuition concerning the circumstances. Now in certain rare cases if someone is ill or knows someone who has a serious ailment and the death card comes up I have a certain procedure that I use in emergencies like this that I won't get into here as it takes too long to explain and it is advanced work that would be too hard to handle for people who merely do entertainment sessions.

I have heard of magicians who remove the death card from the pack to avoid it coming up. That is fine if that is the route they wish to go but then you are not respecting the cards. And you are depriving yourself of a very powerful card which actually can be a very positive one. I prefer to do things for real but with a good bit of street wise common sense.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:48 am

russpie wrote:I agree that the stories which tarot cards can lend themselves to within magic tricks can be seen by audiences to be quite interesting. There's certainly an oldy worldy mystical feel to them.

I also agree with Johnny I'm afraid too, a deck of cards can be shuffled & the resulting deck would have never been in that order before. It doesn't mean that some higher being has made you stop shuffling at that particular point & it doesn't mean that the resulting cards dealt off to 'read' are there for any reason other than chance. And that is before we get into the realm of what the reader has been taught/researched on what tarot cards are supposed to mean, add onto that the influence of how they choose to interpret all the cards together & their connection with the other dealt out cards.

In my view it's as far out there as tea leaves, star signs, crystal balls & phrenology. I think telling someone what your interpretation of something which can very easily influence their life choices is dangerous ground. As I said, my opinion & I do appreciate your contribution to magic, I hope it's not taken personally but it seems tarot cards like Ouija boards were created as a game, nothing more.


I DO agree that the cards come up at random and that it is not a pre-ordained mystical force that makes it work. I have already explained that there is a scientific basis for it working. A perfectly logical reason that even a sceptic might accept if they were of an open mind. I am a very street wise person and not naive in the slightest. I don't believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden. However, I know WHY the Tarot works because I have studied it with intensity and have figured out what the reason is. I shall merely say that it is not the cards that are doing it but the operator. The cards merely come up at random and in fact they can come in ANY order but no matter how they come up they will relate to the person's life in some way. It is the reader's responsibility to interpret what he sees so that it fits the person and does so in a positive way.

I do agree that when an inexperienced operator "tells someone what your interpretation of something which can very easily influence their life choices is dangerous ground." However, there is a difference. I know what I am doing and others don't. That is what I mean when I say that most magicians are not capable of advanced work. I am very expert in deciding what is dangerous ground is and what isn't. For example I have already explained that telling a client you don't like, that they are going to die is dangerous ground. But of course this should be obvious to anyone. It has not gone unnoticed by me that only one other person has hinted at this whereas there is some eagerness to say that what I do is deemed iffy!

For those tiny few of you who would wish to explore longer more serious readings which are not done in rather superficial entertainment sessions I would recommend this book. "On Becoming a Counsellor" by Eugene Kennedy. It is written for non professional counsellors such as social workers, members of the clergy etc; I doubt very much if the author expected it to be recommended for tarot readers and hopefully he won't be too horrified by the event.

Last edited by mark lewis on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby Boris » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:56 am

Tarot cards, as a tool of divination, began in the latter half of the 1700s - hardly what I would call ancient (particularly considering that ancient generally refers to any time before the fall of the Western Roman Empire or 476 AD).

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:05 am

Boris wrote:Tarot cards, as a tool of divination, began in the latter half of the 1700s - hardly what I would call ancient (particularly considering that ancient generally refers to any time before the fall of the Western Roman Empire or 476 AD).


Ancient enough for me old chap. Besides I am a psychic not a bloody historian! At any rate I combine it with palmistry which IS an ancient divination system mentioned in the Bible. I personally find it very difficult to read tarot without reading the palms first so for me I consider the whole thing "ancient".

I am not particularly interested in the history of the Tarot but since you seem to be here is a little video which may be of interest to you and others concerning this matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UL84gUahNfo

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby JohnnyMac » Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:19 pm

mark lewis wrote:The death card often comes up and I rather like it when it does! It is actually a good card! It means the death of the old and the beginning of the new. The end of one cycle in a person's life and the start of a new cycle.


Thanks, I didn't know that. I always thought the Death card meant 'end of life'.

Do you ever get someone who believes as I thought, and thinks you're just trying to make them feel better with the explanation you give to them?

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:01 pm

No. I am very authoritative when I work and people realise that I know what I am talking about. Furthermore as I previously
mentioned many people know ALREADY that the death card does not mean death. In any case they can look up the meaning themselves if they wish.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby Johnny Wizz » Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:45 am

Ok, I am sorry if I became too personal but I honestly do not think that it is healthy to believe in predicting the future with a pile of printed cards. I love Tarot cards, I have done some readings but I cannot condone anyone actually convincing the person you are reading for that you are making a sound prediction. That is totally impossible. You can guess, you can interpret the cards you see in any way you like, but basically you are making it all up because that is all you can do.

Don't pretend that you can do the impossible, that isn't ethical.

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Re: Tarot Card Tricks? Are you nuts?

Postby mark lewis » Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:02 pm

Johnny, I can assure there is no more ethical reader than me. I have written and talked more about ethics in my seminars and material for magicians than anyone else. I do NOT pretend to do the impossible. What I do IS possible but alas until you study my methods properly you cannot appreciate why it is possible. I am afraid until you do so you will have to take my word for it.

I don't want to be personal but it seems a tad hypocritical for you to say that you have done readings yourself and at the same time condemn me for doing the same thing. The difference is that YOU are using fake methods which are well known to magicians. I don't. That is the difference. You are of course entitled to your opinion but it seems to me that if you do not believe in the power of the Tarot then you probably shouldn't be doing readings in the first place.

I do NOT "make things up". I interpret what the cards say. Different thing entirely. However, it isn't solely the cards which are predicting the future. After all I do believe they come up at random. It is ME predicting the future with the AID of the cards. And I am usually right. I would say about 75% of the time and I have hundreds of written testimonials from two continents attesting to this. I tell my clients and I am telling you that nothing is cast in tablets of stone. Nobody can be 100 percent accurate. I liken what I do to a weather forecast. A weather forecaster can say it is going to rain next week and they are usually right. And I am usually right too. However, once in a while the weather forecast is wrong. And once in a while I am wrong too.

I emphasise this in the literature I give to a client after every reading. In the end they have to take charge of their own lives. I explain that predictions cannot be 100 percent accurate and that they themselves control their own future.

Here is the literature I used to give to every client at one time. I did not write it and there is an interesting story as to how it came about which I have no time or space to relate. Nowadays I use different copy which uses less flowery language but essentially says the same thing.

IMPORTANT NOTICE

Any advice or counsel received fits into the parameters of Self-Help and Personal or Spiritual Growth. Consequently, the payment made to the consultant during this time is for services rendered in this context only.

It is accepted that the individual’s free will can influence the course of events that will occur in life, as these events are not unchangeable. Knowing this gives the ability, to a certain degree, to control the future. Time is a continuum and the past/present/future is no more than a perception of a perpetual movement. There is no future as such in the usual meaning of the consultant's discourse; there are only probabilities, trends and projections based on the past and present.

Consequently, the consultant makes no public claim to foretell, foresee or predict the future. In forecasting events, readings may be interpreted for fun and entertainment purposes only.

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