talkmagic.co.uk

Puppet Man,

This magnificent new medium we have (the Internet) for communicating with people all over the world also has its detractors. Sometimes we write things in posts that do not come across well, even though we could say the same things in conversation with a friend with total immunity. I'm sure I should be much more careful about how I say (write) what I say (write).

Thank you for your most helpful posts. I did not read over your recent post without thinking about it, as you suggested I might have done.

When I wrote that I was not convinced that you can make the 'F' sound by making the 'th' sound, perhaps what I should have written is that "I am not convinced that I personally can do it, but perhaps I can if I practice long enough." I probably spoke (wrote) too soon.

As to whether or not I have enough time to do this, well I'll just have to try it and find out.

You asked if I had practiced what you explained. Yes, I have, but not nearly enough.

Last night I watched the movie "Dummy" for the second time, but this time with much greater interest. I found myself going back over and over again to relisten to something the dummy said. In one case the dummy said "Steven." It really sounded like "Steven" with a 'V', but I did not think that the vent could actually say the 'V'. On about the fourth listening, I heard something more like "SteTHen." It seems that what I had been hearing as "SteVen" all along was really "SteTHen," but that my mind was changing it to "Steven" because that's what I wanted to hear.

The question that raises for me is this:

Can one really learn actually to make the so-called impossible sounds without moving his lips, or does he simply learn to make very similar sounds in such a convincing way as to create an "auditory illusion?"

LATE BREAKING NEWS: I just received an email from an important person in Nigeria who wants to share 20% of a 35-million dollar fortune with me. All I have to do is to provide my bank account information! It looks like my ship has finally come in. Now I can buy the Maher ventriloquism course and have lots of time to practice.

Thanks again P.M.

Hey, send that Nigerian person MY bank details too!!!! last time i sent them to him 4 some reason my account went overdrawn and got shut... better if he has my new account details so her can pay what he promised

Yuu kinda answered your own question in a way about making the awkard sounds... Nice research by the way playing over and over again the dummies words... Like your style!


best wishes
Puppet Man

Hey P.M.,

Thanks for the additional training. I ended up ordering the Maher Course in Ventriloquism. I'll let you know what I think.

P.M.,

I think I'm getting the hang of 'F' and 'V'. I can definitely see how that a properly done 'th' as an 'f' comes close enough to fool the listener's ear.

I'm going through the Maher course now. I'm also considering buying a figure, though they are a bit expensive.

I've been practicing 'm' using a combination 'ng' and 'n' slur, so the word "more" comes out a bit like "iGNore" but without the leading 'i'. The hardest thing is when I have to do it twice in a row, as in "mimic" or "mama."

Maher recommends substituting 'g' or 'd' for 'B' and 't' or 'c' for 'P'. None of these substitutions sounds real good to me. Maybe it's just a matter of practice. Perhaps if I can make 'th' sound like 'f', then I can make 'd' sound like 'b'.

Some years back I had a computer program for learning a foreign language. You could hook up a microphone to the computer and speak into it. A meter would show how close you were getting to correct pronunciation in that language. I think it would be neat to have something like that for a vent to get immediate feedback on his tongue technique.

And you said all of that without me seeing your lips move

dat8962 wrote:And you said all of that without me seeing your lips move

Not only that, but I was drinking a beer and smoking a cigar while I said it.

I've enjoyed this thread as Ventriloquism is something that I know nothing about and have occasionally wondered about the technique, particularly after seeing a good performer.

The posts have given a small insight into the skill.

ab5zn

I'm glad you've been determined enough to put my humble offerings to the ultimate test to see if they really work.. Thank you.

I've never seen any of the Maher Course, so do not know of its teachings on technique. But my personal feeling on sound substitutions is they are unnesessary.


Best Wishes
Karl

Almost forgot to mention,

A GREAT source of high quality and super value for money puppets is www.axtell.com

Karl,

I was practicing 'P' and discovered that I can come extremely close using my throat and the back of my tongue. I start out as if making a 'k' sound, but then pull the tongue back and up and do something similar to swallowing. The tongue and throat end up making the "puh" that you get from 'p', normally using the lips.

It occurred to me, though, that sometimes I sound like a parakeet doing this. Then I realized that parakeets talk and don't have lips. Maybe I'm learning to talk the way a parakeet does it?

Does this sound right to you?

I watched the "Dummy" DVD yet again, but this time with the running commentary by Jeff Dunham. Man, is he good or what!

Also, do you ever avoid labials yourself?

It occurred to me, though, that sometimes I sound like a parakeet doing this. Then I realized that parakeets talk and don't have lips. Maybe I'm learning to talk the way a parakeet does it?

Does this sound right to you?

Your description nearly made me wee myself laughing! NO, it doesn't sound right to me! But what the hell,if its working for you stick with it! Even if you do sound like a parakeet

Also, do you ever avoid labials yourself?

The answer to that is a simple 'no'.

I have seen it written & even heard other ventriloquists offer this advice.
“Learn to avoid using words that can’t be pronounced without moving your lips. Instead of your puppet saying all the difficult words, you say them! Use your natural voice to say what restricts you ventriloquially.”

To me that advice is a load of cobblers. If you embrace that approach, you and your puppet will make a conscious effort to avoid using many words. Even simple words like “Bus”. Doing so will not only limit what you and your puppet can say, it will also have a negative effect on your confidence. In your heart you will be aware of your limitations and lose the essential “sparkle“ that your ‘entertainment’ could contain. What’s the point in having a puppet that talks but can only say certain words?

My advice is simple and straightforward. Discover the correct way to speak difficult words now and begin practicing how to speak them now. The truth is; they are only difficult words to begin with, but once you understand and master how to do it, it will become second nature to you and you will never have trouble again because there will be NO such thing as a difficult word!

I assure you that there are NO words in the English language that a you cannot say without moving your lips!

All the Best

puppet man

Karl,

Thanks for that reply. I really am trying to master all of the labials so that I almost never will avoid saying labials in the figure's voice. I enjoy practicing words such as performance while driving to work.

I don't want you to "wee" yourself. I'll see what kind of 'p' I can produce using your tongue-on-the-top-of-the-teeth method. I'm guessing that there are multiple ways to achieve the same labial. One problem with my method of doing 'p' is that it works great when the 'p' does not come at the very end of a word. The way I do the 'p' is like a 'c' (as in "cat") but without the puff of air that comes along with it. When you say 'p' at the end of a word, you need that "puh" puff.

The 'f' that you were explaining at the beginning of our discussion is almost second nature for me now. A word such as "forever" gives me no trouble now.

I'm also getting reasonably good with M in many situations. When I have a problem with M is when one M follows anothers, as in "mommy" or "my manager." I'm sure this is just going to be a matter of practice, practice, practice.

Now I have another question for you:

Can you personally speak in your natural voice (not the figure's voice) without moving your lips and jaw such that someone listening to you on the phone would not even realize that you were doing that?

I'm just curious. You see, I've discovered that when I say the labials with the best accuracy that I'm able to produce at my level of development as a vent, the letters come out pretty well if I'm using the figure's voice. After all, the figure's voice is a little funny anyway, so if the labials are not perfect, well they fit in okay anyway. However, if I am trying to speak in my natural voice but without lip movement, that is much more challenging.

For example, I can say "she's a Very Pretty Manager" in a figure voice such that if I had a figure (which I don't yet) and had mastered the head/mouth/eye control, it would come out pretty well. On the other hand, I cannot say that same phrase in my normal voice in a convincing way without lip movement. Probably it's just a matter of experience.

Hey, You are SO right, 'Continuous Practice' will bring the reward you are hoping for. I applaud you for making a passionate effort to practice and practice and practice until the whole way of vent talking becomes a second nature to you. I am so pleased that the letter F and indeed the entire F sound is already a second nature to you. All i can say is practice your B's M's P's V's W's in exactly the same manner and determination and you will CRACK them too.

Your Success in ventriloquism doesn't come because you know the secret method - it comes when you have MASTERED the method. And from what I can gather, you are well on the road to success. I am SO proud of you!

Now I have another question for you:

Can you personally speak in your natural voice (not the figure's voice) without moving your lips and jaw such that someone listening to you on the phone would not even realize that you were doing that?

The answer is YES. It is something i occasionally do to keep up to date with my 'practicing' of the vent technique.

I'm just curious. You see, I've discovered that when I say the labials with the best accuracy that I'm able to produce at my level of development as a vent, the letters come out pretty well if I'm using the figure's voice. After all, the figure's voice is a little funny anyway, so if the labials are not perfect, well they fit in okay anyway. However, if I am trying to speak in my natural voice but without lip movement, that is much more challenging.

I think you make a good point here. But again it all comes down to practice. Once you have an "established" voice for your puppet that you consistently use day in day out, you will find it much easier. Practice all the tough sounds and words using its voice and it should be a simple matter of fine tuning any minor imperfections. The more "conciously" you practice, the more aware you will become of what is NOT sounding right. When you know the cause of the problem you will be able to fix it yourself.
Its all about Self awareness and determination to succeed. You seem to be well on your way to cracking it now.. Good on you Dave.

best Wishes

puppet man

Karl,

Thanks for the support and advice.

Dave

Thank you for thanking me.. You are Very Welcome... It's MY pleasure.