Talkmagic.co.uk

ab5zn · Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:22 pm Post subject:

Dat8962:

Thank you for your input. You may very well be right about the comment that it was the reference to the rabbit smell that supposedly caused offense rather than the mere usage of panties in a trick. Of course, I don't think it was offensive. Furthermore, the written warning does not mention it.

Your reaction to the warning letter did not surprise me because a lot of facts are missing there. There is no history of sexual misconduct as you suggested.

Also, the joke about why computers are like men and why computers are like women is hardly sexual. I found that it has been widely circulated on the Internet, appears at CLEAN JOKE sites, and has even been used by some ministers in their sermons.

The fact is that Bob is white and had recently become the manager of a team of software testers that was staffed almost completely by blacks. The fact that they were all black was not at all relevant to him. The fact that many of them were incompetent WAS relevant, though. He tried to make some humane personnel changes without firing anyone. As they say, "no good deed goes unpunished."

The call to the ethics hotline was in retaliation for Bob's changes on the team. H.R. could not substantiate the complaint of racially motivated personnel changes, but they got stuck on the other "incidents."

You also are not fully aware of the context. Bob and I work in an environment in which some people, including women, make all kinds of off-the-wall sexual comments all the time in front of other people. The things that Bob did are tame by comparison.

I did not mean to mislead you by omitting facts. I simply wanted to focus on the magic trick in this thread.

dat8962 · Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject:

Hi - in response...

The written warning does appear to mention the matter as it refers to the magic. It does not need to go into lots of detail in the letter as long as it was discussed at the disciplinary hearing. Just because you and your friend did not think it offensive, does not make it inoffensive to others.

As to the warning letter, I can;t comment on facts that were missing.

The joke about the computers may not have been sexual but it was apparently construed as sexist which is similarly enough for it to warrant disciplinary action in most organisations code of conduct.

I would advise against making this a racial issue as this appears to be a performance issue. Why mention colour and then, in the same sentence say that it's not relevant. You give the impression, rightly or wrongly that there is an underlying issue and most HR departments and people will pick up on this. It's like digging a hold and then finding that you can't get out.

If someone is incompetant at their job and you are a manager, you need to sit down on an individual level and discuss the issues direct. You should record what is said and take advice from HR. They are the professionals afterall Wink

This was perhaps a misjudgement on your friends part.

The ethics hotline were right in their judgement that from what appears to have happened, there was a case to answer - afterall, that's what they are there for. Context is a very subjective matter and things can easily be said out of context, misunderstood etc. but what's said can't be taken back. You have to hope that the person see's reason and trusts that you didn't mean what you said in the way that they understood it. In respect of what other people do, two wrongs do not make a right. If you have evidence of this then you could certainly claim that you have been victimised as there is no consistency in the process that you have been tried by.

The magic trick is not the issue here!

dat8962 · Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject:

I forgot to mention.........

If your colleague has been put into a position of managing people and there is no documented process on how this is done, and your colleague has received no structured training on dealing with staff issues, does not have this responsibility in his job description etc. then he could perhaps argue with some success that the company disadvantaged him by putting him in this situation without appropriate support.

Therefore, the company is partly responsible for his his lack of judgement.

vic_vdb · Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject:

That said, all things being considered, unless a caveat or rider can be placed on the records by Bob regarding the sitaution on a 'without prejudice' basis, I would swallow hard - omit magic from my work repetoire and keep my head down for the duration of the probationary period.

Vendettas and witch-hunts are nasty things which are hard to prove and often listened to by those spineless, risk-averse plebs that get into management roles.

Hope that this works out well,

Vic

dat8962 · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:08 am Post subject:

What I've found interesting is how the poll has swung from a 'yes' in the first few days of this post to a definate 'maybe'.

There are a few spineless, risk adverse plebs as you elequently put it vic in all walks of life, not just in managment but funnily enough, most do seem to end up in HR or Marketing departments Laughing

nickj · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:28 am Post subject:

I voted as a maybe. In most cases I would have thought that the inclusion of pants in a routine would be totally acceptable, though there are always a few exceptions. However, if Bob already knew that there were members of his audience who may have a grudge against him and were as petty as they seem I think he was very silly to do so many things that could be construed as tasteless or even discriminatory.

vic_vdb · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:59 am Post subject:

Zack · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Please vote in my poll.

ab5zn · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Please vote in my poll.

ab5zn · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject:

vic_vdb · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject:

Looks like Bob's up against the system in a big way.

It's always sad when the majority of the people enjoy or support a person and the way they operate and yet the minority can, and do, rule the roost.

PC is a problems, especially becuase liberals who fight for the freedom to have not rules are the most venemous and neaty people if you happen to be someone with whom they disagree. Freedom is I'm afraid a very narrow one way street.

This is shown by the fact that mitigation in the form of comments praising an act or offering balanced support is nearly always ignored (in case it further offends the complainant and incurs their wrath against the management or HR - what a great headline that always makes Sad

)

Tell Bob to keep chin up, some day the reasonable people will regain control,

Vic

ab5zn · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:33 pm Post subject:

Vic,

I agree 100%.

Dave