talkmagic.co.uk

by **magicdiscoman** » Jun 28th, '07, 03:04

i miss paul daniels and his variety show but i miss debbie magee more, then i am at that funny age.

by **Michael Jay** » Jun 28th, '07, 08:14

Josh Clarke wrote:I don't think Criss took the magic out of the trick, I think the first post did. I'd say 75% of people don't know about stooges and they're the audience Criss is aiming at. So 75% of people couldn't explain it other than magic. But then very "un-magically" they can search Google and find out from this forum what really happened. Criss didn't do anything other than amaze a lot of people, until they read this forum.

I find this rather ironic, considering that 99% of the people didn't know how "Ashes on the Hand" worked until Criss Angel exposed it on national television.

I kept my opinions to myself on Angel using camera tricks and special effects as if they were magic and not a Hollywood machination until he started exposing my material.

He's fair game, now.

Mike.

by **Josh Clarke** » Jun 28th, '07, 19:39

Michael Jay wrote:
Josh Clarke wrote:I don't think Criss took the magic out of the trick, I think the first post did. I'd say 75% of people don't know about stooges and they're the audience Criss is aiming at. So 75% of people couldn't explain it other than magic. But then very "un-magically" they can search Google and find out from this forum what really happened. Criss didn't do anything other than amaze a lot of people, until they read this forum.

I find this rather ironic, considering that 99% of the people didn't know how "Ashes on the Hand" worked until Criss Angel exposed it on national television.

I kept my opinions to myself on Angel using camera tricks and special effects as if they were magic and not a Hollywood machination until he started exposing my material.

He's fair game, now.

Mike.

Good point. I believe he used lipstick though.

by **Michael Jay** » Jun 28th, '07, 19:59

It's true, he used lip stick. And, the very next day, my next door neighbor told me that she had seen Angel expose it on his show and was disappointed because I had shown her the trick a few weeks prior to her seeing the program.

Funny, that. She was actually disappointed that she had learned how it was done.

See - I don't have a television set (which I consider to be a phenominal waste of time) and the only reason I knew about his exposure was because of my next door neighbor.

Mike.

by **Phas3r** » Jun 29th, '07, 15:44

Well im confused but i think im coming out with some arguments on both side.

I never been abble to believe in Criss magic because it goes against most of the magical principe ive learn over the years. So i always tend to believe he is doing "Cinema Magic". The same type we can see in the best of Hollywood's movies.

In other hand he is clearly a magician but he is also an actor holding a strong magician character wich create the biggest part of his effects. The fact that he can mix both kind of magic togheter, bring a new twist in magic.

I believe i would not be abble to do this kind of magic because it does go against my principles. I have no problems with stooges really but i will never perform in front of a fake audience. I understand the telespectators arent "stooges" but when i perform i do it under your eyes because i want your eyes to be the witness of my magic!

Now if the laymen seeing the trick are paid actors it takes everything away from my pleasure as a magician.

just my 0,02$

by **beeno** » Jun 29th, '07, 16:34

When you sign that contract, you sign away your persona.
I don't believe he is fully happy with what he's producing at the moment. He is a talented magician after all.

by **Michael Jay** » Jun 29th, '07, 17:35

That is precisely why I'm so disappointed in Angel myself, beeno. He really is a talented magician. He doesn't need FX to make him better, because he used to be the real deal.

His stage show in New York city was highly spoken of by magicians and critics both. He was doing well for himself and the show was unique. Further, he did a "no cover" Metamorphosis which was cutting edge and lauded by his peers in the magic industry.

I can understand his picking up the television show. Anyone would have done the same in his shoes. He has a staff of consultants on the payroll who anyone would be envious to have....And what do we get? Camera tricks. Not just editing to get rid of tell tale stuff that the unblinking eye of the camera just doesn't miss, but full on special effects the likes of a Hollywood/George Lucas movie.

So much the shame.

Now he's exposing magic. Did he honestly need to go that route? Was his show losing rating points that required such a thing? He sold us out, pure and simple.

Mike.

by **oberon** » Jul 4th, '07, 17:23

Chris Angel is a fraud.

My son and I went to Vegas, and one of the things we really wanted to see was Chris Angel somewhere in the Alladin. Well our wish was fulfilled, and it was the biggest disappointment both of us ever had. Chris Angel has a troupe of hairstylists and makeup people around him. Everyone who is there on camera, must sign a release, if they don’t they are very rudely forced to leave the space. He was doing the trick of levitating a woman when we saw him, so we signed the forms, only to find out that the woman he was levitating, was taken into a back room, with her husband and coached on the trick, (Text deleted by Mods) with hair and makeup people fussing in between. I am amazed, this has not been uncovered, and it was a huge let down for my son and I as we were big Angel fans. I would say that, in my opinion, Chris Angel may not even have known one trickbefore hollywoood found him as a person to look good for the camera. Since this display, I would say my loyalty will stay with David Blaine, at least he can’t fake his endurance displays. There was nothing whatsoever real or even an attempt at illusion from Chris Angel. If anyone does not believe this letter, then I urge you to go to the Alladin and see for yourself.

Note from Mods: Whilst we can appreciate that you were more than disappointed, please go and read the forum rules about exposure.

by **Demitri** » Jul 5th, '07, 02:09

I'm going to call Bravo Sierra on this...

by **jayfrommo** » Aug 22nd, '07, 22:29

sniperx wrote:Chris Angel Debunked/Busted

I don’t believe in giving away an illusion if you pre know the trick, but believe it is fair game to point out a Bad Illusion when it is botched and freely visible and available to the novice. It is then fair game to comment on. More important it’s fair game to point out when no illusion is involved at all…

Chris Angel has now been officially debunked and busted.. Of course most people would agree each trick on mindfreak is an illusion, but because the show is filmed, a major assumption that the crowds and reactions are real. That assumption that the illusions Angel does are before a real audience is the key separating him from a true illusionist vs a fake not worthy of his title.

Episode
Wine Barrel Escape: DejaVue Trick Botched..
Chris is shown inside the hotel coming through the doorway into a hallway. He reacts with surprise “oh and now were on tape”, as if an impromptu moment. Chris has some family and what looks to be at least 2 to 4 bystanders walking through the door with him. The camera then shows 2 different couples walking down the hall towards them.. Chris intercepts both.. He asks all four their names and asks them to be the “eyes” for the camera to validate what he is going to show them. He has one couple stand 10 feet down the hall, and the other couple stand right to his side. A group of family and other bystanders stand behind him.. all in all a typical size “impromptu” audience for his illusions. He then tells the one couple to think of a deja vue moment and hold that thought in their mind “just as he does in every illusion”, then suddenly steps DIRECTLY in front of the CAMERA completely blocking the view and couple, and says “ITS GOING TO HAPPEN NOW!” he steps aside unblocking the camera view and the couple are now at the end of the hall.

This “trick” was botched and now exposed him. When he is blocking the camera view there is a clearly defined shadow on the left wall of the couple where the blocked view copule are standing. The shadow shows them quickly moving towards the right side wall light which is creating the shadow. There is clearly a corner there and door which the corners blocks from camera view…(this is not secret most hotels have similar layouts).. the shadow clearly shows them shadow of the couple quickly ducking to the right and into one of the hotel rooms. As if this obvious botch wasn’t bad enough, right before Chris steps in front to block the cameras view, you can clearly see the girl of the couple quickly moving to the side bolting for the open hidden by corner hotel room door. Not one but TWO clearly visible dead giveaway cues..

More significant to this though is that all 3 couples react with surprise and the typical bleeped out cuss word, the couple to his side, the couple that bolts when he blocks the camera view, and the lookalike couple at the end of the hall. Them and the people behind him all clearly on the fake stunt. Note Chris was ONLY blocking the camera view now the couple to his side.. meaning they Clearly would have seen the other stooge couple bolting to the side door, thus confirming the entire crowd were stooges as no “illusion” was performed or even attempted. No illusion as defined by magick/illusions was performed and was purely obstructing camera view and paid stooges. This means that every single “illusion” that angel performs on mindfreak now can be debunked as not even illusion just obstructed view and stooges.. I pose the argument that tht is not magic or illusion and not worthy to be claimed as such.. Mindfreak is a Busted show. And Angel has been busted as phony..

This episode was Tivoed, and I’d be happy to provide the stills/video if anyone needs me to back this up.. Note I don’t have anything against Angel, I just don’t believe someone claming to be an illusionist that doesn’t perform illusions, that even botches his own camera hiding should be exposed..

from the movie swordfish "Misdirection. What the eyes see and the ears hear, the mind believes"

for every one out there the real illusion and magic is only and will always be misdirection. all it is is a show "a good show " but that how i feel on thing. but that is all it will ever be is a SHOW.

by **JAlexBrown** » Aug 23rd, '07, 02:43

I would have to feel a tad rediculous if I hopped on this thread bandwagon and stated that Angel uses nothing but stooges and camera tricks. I can appreciate a good trick and I can appreciate a bad trick for equally different reasons. A good trick is very amusing because, for just a second, you're carried away into another world. A bad trick, on the other hand, puts you into reality. A bad trick doesn't make you feel magical...just a fool. Truth be told, though, once we know how a trick is actually done, *all* tricks are bad tricks. Not a single trick makes you feel magical once you know how it's done. Once I learned the Healed and Resealed Can trick, I felt sort of a fool. Such a simple concept totally overlooked. Criss Angel's Deja Vu trick was a bad trick, yes; we, now, all know how it was done (I'll avoid pointing out that quite a few people probably learned how it was done in the process of reading this thread...oops...it just slipped). In any case, a bad trick on Angel's part doesn't make Angel a poor magician. Has any magician here never done a bad trick or accidently exposed their method? I think every magician has done at least one bad trick, so cut the man some slack and let him entertain anyone who is entertained by his stuff. If you're not entertained by his performance, the simple and clean answer is to not watch it, not comment on how poor you think his stuff is done, and let those of us who want to enjoy it enjoy it.

JAlexBrown

by **Demitri** » Aug 23rd, '07, 09:19

I have to disagree about all tricks being "bad" tricks, once we know the secret. I absolutely LOVE watching any and all magicians - good or bad. I can learn from all of them. A bad magician can teach you what not to do (or what doesn't work), while a great magician can inspire you to improve and refine your abilities. Then there are the times where I just allow myself to forget the secrets I know, and just sit back and enjoy a performance.

I still uphold that, without the ability to go back and examine that deja vu effect, there wouldn't have been as big a reaction. Not to mention that some of the solutions were actually wrong!

If you have to go back and watch something frame by frame just to expose the "fakery" - then you have completely missed the entire point of the performance. These people aren't looking for entertainment - they're just vying for a moment in the spotlight so they can engage in a masturbatory display of how cool and smart they are.

by **JAlexBrown** » Aug 23rd, '07, 15:07

I may have poorly explained my stance. I, too, enjoy watching all magicians. Even though I sometimes feel insulted when watching a bad magician (he takes me for enough of a fool to not have noticed that obvious enter any p**m you like here), but I still enjoy watching even bad magic. I didn't mean to say I don't enjoy watching bad magicians. When I say *bad trick*, I'm referring to just that, a bad trick, but not necessarily a bad or unentertaining performer.

JAlexBrown

by **Demitri** » Aug 23rd, '07, 16:25

Gotcha. I agree with you there. If the guy is arrogant and terrible - then I lose interest.

by **JAlexBrown** » Aug 23rd, '07, 20:55

While I knew Criss had not performed any real feat of magic (and, hence, even I couldn't understand why the group acted surprised at the end of the hall like even they were clueless as to what he had done), I can honestly say that the real solution wouldn't have been my first guess. I had plenty of ideas in my head (most of which I cannot remember now that I know how the trick really works), but the right method was never one of them. If you ask me, this entire thread was written so some guy could get some attention, which he obviously did succeed in (I don't suppose anyone's kept track of exactly how long this thread has been on the first page of the Magician's Hall of Fame section), but there was nothing more to the original poster's comments. It was to strike a match and throw it into some gas - create a little explosion of controversy and watch it all go down for the sake of some attention. This thread almost seems pointless anymore (ironic, yes, since I myself continue to post to this thread, but that's neither here nor there). In any case, I hope the original poster understands that he's not exposed Criss as a fraud, because we've all already knew that.

JAlexBrown

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