talkmagic.co.uk

Nubbin

I'm not arguing with you - I'm just putting forward a different perspective whether you agree with it or not.

I don't even disagree with what you have written and did write that those into, or wanting to get into flourishes may well be better off with other titles than SOWC.

I'm not into flourishes but into magic. I'm not even that much into card magic as it happens. I wouldn't know if a good flourish crept up behind me and shouted DEVO in my ear!

What I am saying is that for the basic needs that I have / had at the time, this DVD title provided what I was looking for and it may do the same for others in a similar situation to me. I don't see that there is anyting wrong with that?

I'm just not interested in butterfly, cobra and sybil cuts.

This isn't an argument - this is a debate which is always a good thing!

Obvioulsy you're entitled to recommend this to beginners it's just I respectfully disagree!

The bottom line is both products are aimed at beginners in card flourish - they both set out to do the same thing.

SOWC is a bad beginner product which I wouldn't recommend to anyone, XB is an excellent beginner product. Yes it costs a few quid more but given the choice - why would you go for the bad product when the much better one is available - that's all!

I think you always get SOMETHING out of watching virtually any magic DVD - it's just if people are reading this and deciding which product to buy I wouldn't steer them near SOWC in a million years!

I know what you mean Nubbin, but I gotta agree with dat. No matter how much/little it costs, a product can only be judged on whether or not it gives you what you want.
I'm getting more into flourishes and will definitely check out xtreme, but SOWC certainly helped me to do what I wanted at the time. I think everything (not just magic) is about sampling as much as you can and taking what works for you, and if there's bits off this DVD that work for people who don't really want to take it any further, then its a good DVD.
I personally do want to take my card work further, but this DVD has served its purpose well for me at my stage so I find it hard to knock. I won't be using everything from it, but there's a few nice little moves in there that I'll keep, then I'll have a look at the next DVD and take bits out of that, then the next....
Fo what I got out of it, it was worth the money.

Nubbin said:

This isn't an argument - this is a debate which is always a good thing!

I couldn't agree more

why would you go for the bad product when the much better one is available - that's all!

I also agree and we're both providing information for others to make an informed choice. You have the advantage as you appear to have both titles whereas I don't have both. It would appear logical for someone looking to buy a DVD of this nature to take the recommendation of someone who does have both.

I think you always get SOMETHING out of watching virtually any magic DVD

So true - even bad ones

XB is an excellent beginner product. Yes it costs a few quid more

This, along with availability can be the clincher.

I'm definately NOT knocking the XB product just in case anyone thinks that I am.

I don't own SOWC but I have seen all of it - my mate had it - watched it and then ebayed it for 10 quid!

The bottom line is in an ideal world you'd be able to watch both and then make your own mind up about which is best for you.

In principle however, I'd never buy a magic makers product owned by Rob Stiff.

Edited by mods: Whilst the controversy regarding the originality of magic makers products has been well noted we would appreciate it if members here did not make defamatory comments about it's proprietor

Okay, maybe I'm bumping into an old topic here, but I want to share my opinions and thoughts on the subject.

Everyone has to begin somewhere in Flourishing, and for most people it is Showoff with Cards simply because it is cheap and covers quite a lot of things.

I do not own Showoff, but I do know that it is a bad DVD for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, many of the moves are taught wrong.
Secondly and more importantly, this DVD does not give credit to the peoples moves, Such as; De'vo, Brian Tudor, and Chris Kenner.

Brian Tudor also has 2 old VHS', which are entitled "Showoff" and "Showoff 2", it is this similarity in names that gets people confused which the original from Tudor, and the rip off from MagicMakers.

Okay, I really can't judge the DVD until I have seen it, but those are the main points I wanted to tell everyone.

And as everyone else has said, XB is a brilliant DVD, and if anyone wants to start XCM/Card Flourishes, then Xtreme Beginners is definately the ebst out there on the market. De'vo teaches very very well.

I bought SOWC a month ago, while travelling abroad. It was on a special offer, under 10 USD, so I bought it of course.
I immediately picked up about 4 flourishes that I did not know from before. Like Tome Hutley said: Everyone has to begin soewhere... and for such a low price I am satisfied.
On the other hand, I saw a warning on PenguinMagic.com under Generation Extreme with Brian Tudor (DVD):
Warning: Don't buy this DVD. Almost no one can actually do the stuff you're about to see. It's aggressive, showy, complex, impossibly fast, and freakish. Once you master it, your spectators may notice only one tenth of what they're supposed to see... and only one one-hundredth of what is actually happening. That's no way to live... pick up a svengali deck and be happy.
That is harsh for the creators of this DVD, but on the other hand it's very good for us consumers, to get honest reviews like this.

Good point gunnarkr, Most of the stuff on Generation Extreme isn't that difficult, it just takes practice and effort to get the material smooth.

I think Penguin are basically discouraging buyers to buy their own products and make more of a profit.

gunnarkr wrote:Warning: Don't buy this DVD. Almost no one can actually do the stuff you're about to see. It's aggressive, showy, complex, impossibly fast, and freakish. Once you master it, your spectators may notice only one tenth of what they're supposed to see... and only one one-hundredth of what is actually happening. That's no way to live... pick up a svengali deck and be happy.
That is harsh for the creators of this DVD, but on the other hand it's very good for us consumers, to get honest reviews like this.

I don't think it's being harsh but hyping up the product more. Kinda like Forbidden Fruit...probably to try and make people so curious that they'll buy it to see if it's really true.

it's just Tudor's arrogance again, his "you can't do this because I'm better than you" attitude he seems to have in a lot of things

Lawrence wrote:it's just Tudor's arrogance again, his "you can't do this because I'm better than you" attitude he seems to have in a lot of things

I wouldn't really say that, I believe that is just Penguin's little bit they have added to the description. I don't think Tudor is like that at all, but he is very skilled.

Okay I had a thought about it, and maybe it is Penguin's hype about Generation Extreme or a no-no so you go and buy "Showoff with cards" instead.

But, it lists the reccomended prerequisites for buying the DVD, notice how all of the products are those made by Penguin.

Okay I'm not going to dig myself a deeper hole here, so lets get back on topic.

Showoff with cards is what I would consider as a last resort, if you only want to learn a few flourishes, don't care for the original creator's work, and not much money, then this DVD is for you.

But if you want to do it right, get taught properly and get a well made DVD then head over to www.handlordz.de and get "Xtreme Beginners". Its the ultimate starting point.

Then, try to get ahold of Tudor's old "Showoff" tapes, CapCuts, and The System. These DVD's teach the moves that will make you want to take a deck of cards with you everywhere, and boost your creativity with flourishing and magic.

Take the word from me.

Well.... here's the thing. SOWC describes the Charlier cut being done with the middle finger?! Every other place describes it with the index finger.

I admit that the teaching in the DVD is okay but the teaching is wrong... Bad habit is also taught wrong and I believe What the hell happened to sybil is also taught wrong. So first, I think Magic Makers should have the courtesy to ask the creators to teach others their moves. And secondly, they should TEACH IT CORRECTLY! I mean how can you teach the Charlier cut wrong?

I think XB is the best option. Ok... so De'vo's a bit on the extreme side of things but the teachings great and best of all, he teaches it right! And Jerry's fanning workshop is great, teaching you fanning in the best way possible!

As Tom said, the System is a great buy but that's only for advanced stuff.

Steve

stevebo wrote:As Tom said, the System is a great buy but that's only for advanced stuff.

I don't really think that, if you have watched Brian Tudor's "Showoff" tapes, then The System should be a doddle.

If you want to buy The System or Generation Extreme, flourish prerequisites are; One Hand Revolution, Sybil and some fans.

And with Generation Extreme it is best to be able to be fluent with card controls and things.

If your a beginner, don't waste your time with "Showoff with Cards", get Xtreme Beginners or if you know some of the basics like Charlier, etc then head to Brian Tudor's "Showoff" Tapes.

Those who are going to the Ipswich Convention can see many flourishes in action from myself, and possibly Steve if he can attend.