talkmagic.co.uk

I think all this editing is a bit silly. This is a magic forum where its fair to assume people are not completely idiots and know a bit about methods
In my view discussing the plot of the effect - is potentially causing MORE damage to the effect than some general remarks about outs etc.

If people read the plot on the magic pages I can for sure not perform the effect since the last thing you want the spectators to know is that you paid £19.95 for an effect, that they can read - according to the review - is very easy to perform.

It is true we should not in general discuss our methods, but I think sometimes people are a bit too paranoid, and in my mind discussing the plot of an effect (and pointing out how easy it is to perform) can cause as much damage as discussing some general idea that is freely available in even the most basic magic literature.

Soren Riis wrote:I think all this editing is a bit silly. This is a magic forum where its fair to assume people are not completely idiots and know a bit about outs etc.
In my view discussing the plot of the effect - is potentially causing MORE damage to the effect than some general remarks about outs etc.

If people read the plot on the magic pages I can for sure not perform the effect since the last thing you want the spectators to know is that you paid £19.95 for an effect, that they can read - according to the review - is very easy to perform.

It is true we should not in general discuss our methods, but I think sometimes people are a bit too paranoid, and in my mind discussing the plot of an effect (and pointing out how easy it is to perform) can cause as much damage as discussing some general idea that is freely available in even the most basic magic literature.

Hear, hear.

I must admit, I sort-of agree.

On the other hand, if I were the creator of a highly-priced product with some nice props and I saw my effect's method being freely discussed, I might figure I was going to lose some sales.

If the props are worth the money paid, then that comes out in the review. That being the case, knowing that there are certain techniques that are involved in any given trick that are within the grasp of any given magician makes buying the trick all the more alluring. If any so called "magician" looks at a method and snubs his nose to the trick, then he probably shouldn't be doing the trick, anyway.

Consider: Most of the magic community is made up of amateurs. Of that group, a large percentage have only been in magic for a short period (say, under 5 years). Of that group, most of them want a trick that they can do NOW. And, in that group, they have a surprising amount of disposable income. They see it's something that they can do immediately, money isn't a big object and the props bear out the price. Not surprisingly, it will sell.

Further consider: In the group that would be considered "pro to semi-pro," the larger percentage of them are ethical, meaning that if they don't buy it, they won't copy it. In this group is a certain amount of disposable cash, particularly for buying an effect that they believe is usable in their act. For this group, knowing how it works does not dissuade them from making a purchase, although it may be the deciding factor in whether to buy immediately or wait a bit.

Further consider: In the group that are thieving little b******s, they will come up with a method, right or wrong, and copy the trick. Regardless of anything, though, paying the price of admission will never be an option.

Lastly, consider: Of the general populace made up of laymen, they have no idea what we're talking about, even though it seems obvious to us. If we say "I did a dbl lft," it will be fully meaningless to the unitiated. They do have a base knowledge, though...Most of them know what misdirection is, even though they have no idea of the depth of study that goes into the techniques that are involved; most of them know what "palming" is, even though they can't catch it or see it; most of them have very misguided notions as to how we do what we do ("It went up his sleeve" or "The hand is quicker than the eye"). But, in the general scheme of things, if I say that a coin is made to transmute into something else via the use of a Bobo Switch, it will make absolutely no sense to them and will be a far cry from exposing anything at all.

And, it is all a minefield. Where do you draw the line? What constitutes exposure? Is it exposure if shared amongst magicians? Is it okay to openly (amongst magicians) expose one sleight, but not another? Which sleights can be shared and which sleights are considered exposure (or even theft) if shared without any one, given person's permission?

There are a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to exposure and ethics (and by "unanswered" I mean that any possible answers are vehemently disputed from person to person and group to group).

Sometimes, we do go to extremes.

Mike.

I would like to go on record as saying I (and the others involved) did not discuss the method at all. No layman could have seen this and picked up on anything. You have to be in the know already, to even begin to understand what was being discussed.

Without wishing to sound like I am jumping on the bandwagon here, I am a little surprised at the editing that has taken place in this thread. I honestly don't believe any exposure has taken place, for reasons which have already been stated. But neither am I questioning the decision to make widespread edits; it's a hard call. As someone else touched on, where do you draw the line on discussing an effect's presentation and/or method on a magic forum like this? The mods do a tough, generally thankless job and sometimes decisions to edit posts will inevitably provoke discussions such as this.

This is not about who was right and who was wrong - I'm just thinking out loud here and making observations, not taking sides. As I said, the subject matter is a grey area in my opinion, and the mods have a hard job - edit posts, possibly in response to other members concerns about exposure, or not?

I was the one who edited the posts as I had received several complaints.

I even edited one of my own, so it wasn't a matter of singling people out.

The way I saw it was that if it was generating concern then it didn't hurt to make the edits.

Personally I don't think I took much away from the posts made. There were two types of edit, one were the method was mentioned in passing that (imo) offered nothing to the post. If you had the trick you knew the method anyway, so mentioning would have only benifitted those that didn't.

The other edit I made was perhaps more crucial to the posts in question in that it mentioned that the the trick could sometimes go in several directions and some of those directions were more preferable to follow than others. So in those cases I agree that I did remove perhaps even the main point of some of the posts.

Personally I maintain that an open forum was not the place to open that sort of discussion. in the Magicians Only Area perhaps, but not in the reviews section.

Someone in this thread said we are all magicians here and it is ridiculous that we aren't allowed to openly discuss such things. If we were a group of magicians in a pub, I would agree. Yes there is a slight chance we may be overheard but on the whole the discussion is kept to just the table of magicians.

However, this isn't a pub it is a magic forum that has one of the best hit rate as far is google is concerned and I do know that non magicians come here to find out things. It is a shame but it is true. Having said that the google thing is also good because many of you found this place through such search engines.

Michael Jay made an interesting point, in that sometimes knowing a little about the method makes the effect more alluring. I do agree with that, but I suspect any magician would know the method to this one without being told anyway? What they perhaps would't know is the specifics of it.

I accept everyones comments. I repeat that I wasn't telling anyone off for exposing, just reacting to a complaint, but I do stand by my decision to do so and actually think it was the right thing to do.

Exposure is a line - sometimes it is not obvious where that line should be drawn.

The only problem I can see with making up your own version is that if the choices are of the same ‘value’ then your not in a position to lead the spec to choose the ‘best’ outcome.

Did that make sense?

bananafish - Thanks for clearing things up. I'm sorry there were complaints - I hope I didn't step on any toes. In light of what you said, I can see why certain edits were made.

FRK - I don't think I understand what you mean. Speaking in terms of the original - none of the choices have more value than the other. It's just 4 cards depicting 4 characters from various films. Neither is given a preference - it's all down to the spectator. The perceived value is in the mind of the spectator. Also, I don't see a point in leading the spectator. The thinking behind the effect makes everything so fair and above board, that leading them would, in my opinion, weaken the effect.

Fair enough, bananafish, although I think I'll need to edit my message, as it's one of those that doesn't really mean much following the other edits. I was joining in with what had already been said, but it was definitely a bit borderline, and as this is an unrestricted bit of the forum, it's best to be safe. Actually, I think my reply is still a bit risky!

Yeah, fair enough, Simon. I think you made a valid point about how the discussion may have been more appropriate in the MO section. I don't envy you mods, by the way. Rather you lot than me. For my part, I think I'll just stick to updating the review indexes. (More straightforward if a little laborious!)

Agreed, the editing had to be done and overall nothing of real import has been lost. My post had the main body cut out of it but when I typed it I half expected something to happen as I was trying to make a point about the general principle of the method and it was tricky to do so without going a bit over the line. C'est la vie, no hard feelings.

However, it would be nice to have a proper debate over the tangent I was on, perhaps in a week or two when this has all died down I'll create a new thread with no obvious links to this one.

Fair dues, Simon. I wasn't questioning the decision to edit, rather debating a point...And, it was off topic anyway.

Mike.

Apologies from me too. Sorry.

I'm thinking about getting this product and I have one question:

1. Do I need to have the wallet out during the performance?

.:Ham:.