Andy Nyman's Killer Elite Pro

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Postby JD » Jun 2nd, '08, 22:15



yeah i was thinking of making my own in the same style but the props are very good quality and mine would look like a botched blue peter job made with my feet!!

i'll stick with this!

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Postby bmagic » Jun 19th, '08, 22:03

It's false advertising if the spectator can't choose any card and experience the same exact situation as shown in the demo.

I am disappointed when the demos only show the best possible outcome.

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Postby FRK » Jun 19th, '08, 22:18

bmagic wrote:It's false advertising if the spectator can't choose any card and experience the same exact situation as shown in the demo.

I am disappointed when the demos only show the best possible outcome.


I agree

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Postby Demitri » Jun 20th, '08, 05:19

It is absolutely NOT false advertising.

The spectator CAN choose any card - and be shown that their selection was the sole survivor. You're placing after-the-fact information into the equation, which is what is creating this sense of disappointment.

There is no "best possible outcome", there's only one outcome. The spectator makes a choice - it's the right choice - there you go.

Say you don't like the effect, that's fine. You're entitled to think a particular way. However, it's not right to say it's false advertising when it clearly is not.

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Postby bmagic » Jun 20th, '08, 06:52

Demitri wrote:It is absolutely NOT false advertising.

Yes it is. I win. :P

Demitri wrote:The spectator CAN choose any card - and be shown that their selection was the sole survivor. You're placing after-the-fact information into the equation, which is what is creating this sense of disappointment.


The effect is a good one but we already know about it. I discovered it in an encyclopedia many years ago and it seems it's been around even longer than that. Now a new salesman is offering someone else's story and props to go with it. The "inventor" of this trick is certainly not the originator of this effect; he is just a new salesman.

Demitri wrote:There is no "best possible outcome", there's only one outcome. The spectator makes a choice - it's the right choice - there you go.


I can see where I could agree with you here but I don't. The effect as presented in the demo is the ideal situation and will get the best reactions.

Demitri wrote:Say you don't like the effect, that's fine. You're entitled to think a particular way. However, it's not right to say it's false advertising when it clearly is not.


I love the (ancient) effect. It works and is practical but is nothing new to me. I have not purchased the emperor's new clothes and would encourage others not to fall for this sort of nonsense either. As other posters have written, this sales trick is the same method ellusionist often uses to sell old tricks. The salesmen in the demo don't describe the trick as "the spectator makes a choice - it's the right choice", which would be more accurate.

The main gripe I have is with today's magic salesmen (and there are indications it has always been this way) is that they use deception to sell their effects. Have you read Penn & Teller's book "Cruel Tricks for Dear Friends"? In the introduction, Penn describes visiting the magic shop with all of the allowance money he has saved up. The shop keeper demonstrates the IT and impresses young Penn so much that he purchases it using a significant amount of his allowance. The shop keeper then reveals that there is no thread at all...

That story was used to teach a slightly different lesson but I think it applies here.

So, if you are reading this and would like a fair review: use your head and see if you understand the basic principle behind the effect. Then decide if you would like to purchase this particular version of it.

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Postby seige » Jun 20th, '08, 06:59

Bit of a tangent developing here.

Andy's not the originator of the *principle*, but he certainly is the originator of the *effect*. As for the video demo, it shows *an outcome*. If it showed *all outcomes* it wouldn't be a demo, it would be an explanation.

I understand the gripes, but frankly what we're discussing here is the overall effect. Which is great—whichever outcome is chosen.

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Postby Replicant » Jun 20th, '08, 07:40

The principle is as old as the hills but Andy's effect is original to him. There are many effects out there that share the same or similar principles; the originator of any one particular effect simply dresses it up differently. The fact that you are already familiar with the principle does not take away from the fact that KEP goes down very well with the layman which, after all, is the important thing here.

As someone who has owned KEP for a while now and performed it numerous times, I can confirm that the effect on the spectator is very good indeed; regardless of the final outcome, I always get great results from KEP and it remains one of my favourite effects that I carry with me everywhere.

Incidentally...

bmagic wrote:...The effect as presented in the demo is the ideal situation and will get the best reactions...I have not purchased the emperor's new clothes...


...if you have not purchased KEP, then how do you know the demo presents the "ideal situation" with the "best reactions"?

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Postby Beardy » Jun 20th, '08, 09:56

I ahve to say that my favourite outcome is indeed the taxi driver, and good ole vincent vega 8)

Overall though, this was most definately worth the money - whatever the outcome.

I knew all outcomes and the method before I purchased the effect...so effectively, i didn't spend £24.99 on the secret, but the props...

and even now, I believe it is well worth it!

Something I have been carrying around with me recently, showing everybody...

new magic syndrome, I guess ;)

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Postby Replicant » Jun 20th, '08, 10:28

Something that is not mentioned in the instructions: the poker chip has an extra, special ingredient that makes it quite friendly with a PK ring. :wink:

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Postby JD » Jun 20th, '08, 14:25

The way every outcome is presented is great! There isn't a bad one in all of them! Yes, some are better but the worst is still tip top! In my opinion anyway! :D

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Postby bmagic » Jun 20th, '08, 17:01

Replicant wrote:...if you have not purchased KEP, then how do you know the demo presents the "ideal situation" with the "best reactions"?


I am an amateur mentalist and am very familiar with this ancient principle. I know what the other props "do" without having to purchase them. The demo makes it a appear that this old principle is not what they are selling at all and so I would recommend in any review that people recognize exactly what they are buying. [note: I'm trying not to spoil anything here but this is difficult.]

I also enjoy crafting my own story and do not need to purchase someone else's story. Why not just add that your name is Andy Nyman when performing this effect?

seige wrote:Bit of a tangent developing here.

I am sorry for my sassyness in this thread; you're right about this being a tangent. Seeing this trick and the glowing reviews pushed a small button here. What I have on my mind encompasses a lot of recent tricks for sale. [side tangent: and I hate that people are getting away with selling one old dressed-up effect at a time for the same price as what you used to be able to get in a book of effects.]

Blapsing_Beard wrote:I knew all outcomes and the method before I purchased the effect...so effectively, i didn't spend £24.99 on the secret, but the props...


That is acceptable and the most I ask of anyone. Before purchasing, make every attempt to understand what you are purchasing.

Some things are indeed worth buying and some things are more rewarding and customized when you make them yourself. A TT is worth buying and using this principle to tell a story that matches your style is worth more than the price of KEP (unless you are Andy Nyman or a clone).

However, I do apologize for the tone of this rant as I am certain to offend those who have purchased. However, as long as you are happy with your purchase, I am happy. Perhaps this new demonstration has been your introduction to a time-tested principle of mentalism.

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Postby Replicant » Jun 20th, '08, 17:22

I don't think there is any need for apologies; it can only be a good thing for all concerned to hear the pros and cons of an effect. Someone who is thinking about puchasing KEP will come to this review and, hopefully, get an insight into what the effect is about; its good as well as bad points. They can then make an informed decision. If all a review can give is continual praise (or, indeed, criticism) then I feel it is of little use to anyone.

And for the record, I am not Andy Nyman or his clone; I have my own performing style and personality. ;)

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Postby JonWhite » Jun 22nd, '08, 20:02

Just to throw my humble chip into the pot...

I finally got round to getting this a few weeks ago. Thanks to the reviews such as on here I had a very good idea of what the effect was, just not how all the various "options" were organised.

It's a fun effect. As a single presented item or if the given premise suits your theme then IMHO it's well worth a look. My only real personal criticism with the effect as sold would be with "Vincent Vega". This to me makes for having to handle the wallet unnecessarily carefully and could have been covered in other ways. It also ensures that the wallet is useful pretty much for this effect only, which is a shame as it would otherwise be a good utility for use beyond just this (I even emailed Alakazam about getting an un-Vincented wallet but got no reply).

There's also some good ideas on a thread over in the green place about using possible alternative "options" should you wish.

Still, regardless of Vincent, I already knew that the premise wasn't for me before purchase but still wanted to investigate fully how it was played. My purchase was also only fair as I've now lifted from this to create my own version:

"Late one night, under the light of the full moon, four classic Hollywood monsters come face to face across a glade in the woods. As the silvery fog drifts in..." (four postcards, a Higley DM finger and a K****t envelope to both keep the cards in and cover the necessary, you can figure the rest I'm sure :)).

However - and regardless of personal qualms re Vincent which clearly doesn't bother others - if the KEP theme had suited me then as a single effect purchase I would certainly be happy enough with both the effect and quality of props that KEP delivers.

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Postby CarterSmith » Jun 24th, '08, 08:05

To start I would just like to first say a kind hello. As a lurker on these forums I have gained much help and insight, found some good recommendations for books and tricks, and have been exposed to ideas I never would have. After nearly a year have finally taken the next step and joined, as having purchased Killer Elite Pro and performing it for almost a year I have found this thread quite interesting.

I first saw this effect in an advertisement online; a few weeks later I was at an area magic shop I frequent and saw it in the case. The salesperson demonstrated it for a few customers as well as myself and I found it a nice portable mental effect with quite an impact, and this was with the Vincent Vega choice. (The presentation weaved in NLP/covert hypnosis). He then proceeded to give a full explanation, and after alleviating my fears of folks grabbing the goods to examine, I was sold. Killer Elite Pro was a mental effect that possessed high quality props, a nice topical routine, and plenty of opportunity for good presentation - what more could I ask for in for $50.00, especially these days.

Having used it for quite some time now, while there are some endings I definitely prefer over others, as with many effects of this nature with proper execution and presentation all are great! Although I having a background in closeup and general magic from my youth, I perform mostly mentalism these days, and this is one effect I almost always have on my person. When performing just one or two effects briefly, I almost always perform this. Never once has anyone grabbed at the props, nor have I ever seen the spectators attempt to even figure it out...they simply are amazed and entertained. As Jon says above, it is a fun effect...and that fun is (can be?) enjoyed by both the spectators and performer. Over the course of repeated performances not only is the presentation able to be meticulously honed, but I have also manage to incorporate subtle suggestions and forces into the routine (thanks many of the classical and contemporary mentalism works often referred to in these forums) that have repeatedly help steer the spectators to indeed select the character for the "preferred" outcomes. All in all I find the effect to be one of the best magic non-text purchases I have made in the past year, as far as being satisfied with the product on all levels, from production value to impact.

I have found one small con, probably already pointed out by others....Vincent Vega wears and fades as time goes by...I guess I will just have to purchase another copy of the effect at the end of summer :D

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Postby seige » Jun 24th, '08, 08:57

Praise the Lord... someone hit the nail on the head: it's what the SPECTATOR thinks, and NOT what the PERFORMER perceives.

This effect hits like hammer, and surely that's all that matters?

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