A new instant stooge principal?

Struggling with an effect? Any tips (without giving too much away!) you'd like to share?

Moderators: Mandrake, bananafish, Lady of Mystery, support, nickj

Best prices around! UK's Online Magic Tricks and Jokes Shop offers kids and beginner magic tricks and jokes. Web Design for Magicians Playing Cards for Magicians MagicWorld Magic Shop for Magic Tricks Aeternum Servare Secreta

A new instant stooge principal?

Postby jdmagic357 » Mar 22nd, '11, 16:25



Actually I'm not sure how new this is? I'm almost certain that Kenton Knepper or one of the wonder wizards have come up with something similar? I'm just not privy to it.

Usually one must get the person to play along with either a bribe like in a restaurant with the waiter or a blatant asking for help like as the person is brought on stage during the clapping acknowledgment.

My premises is to enlist the services of the volunteer without their knowledge.

Insistence comes to mind, as in "you do feel that don't you" continuing with "we all feel like that when in the same situation". The volunteer is made to feel uncomfortable if he/she doesn't go along with what the performer says.

We can also take advantage of "natural instincts", to have a person behave as we wish. Example if one was to get about 4 inches close to the face, it's natural for the person to feel uncomfortable. If we exploit this fact with a statement like "the image on the tarot card will cause you to feel a great discomfort" then showing that person say the devil, will indeed accomplish that fact, if brought 4 inches close to the participant.

I'm just thinking out loud, and typing to record my thoughts. I should probably be using a tape recorder but hey then you all wouldn't share in my thoughts. For those of you who care, perhaps we can come up with more exploitable naturalizations? For those who don't, you can move on to another thread and not troll this one.

Thanks. :wink:

jdmagic357
 

Postby daleshrimpton » Mar 22nd, '11, 16:56

i dont think that it is ever a good idea to make your spectator feel uncomfortable.

There are other techniques available to the performer, that will bring about what you are talking about.
I think you need to research Dual Reality. This brings about the same results as using an instant stooge, without actually doing so.

also, you dont need to bribe people to assist. You will find with carefull audience management, people will be more than happy to be in on the secret, and will keep the secret. which is great.. Particually as, if you use dual reality, the secret they are keeping isnt the secret at all.. :)

Banacheck, Colin McLeod, and a host of other writers cover D.R...

but if you read Annemann,Lesley, and Corinda, you will find effects that utilise this technique, although at the time, it wasnt reffered to as Dual Reality. ( or tripple reality if your John Archer :lol: )

you're like Yoda.you dont say much, but what you do say is worth listening to....
Greg Wilson about.... Me.
User avatar
daleshrimpton
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 7186
Joined: Apr 28th, '03, 08:49
Location: Burnham, Slough Berkshire

Postby bmat » Mar 22nd, '11, 17:13

Yup, bad idea. The minute you make somebody uncomfortable you failing at your job as an entertainer. I'm not going to pay for a show and then be made to feel uncomfortable. There are people like me in the world who will let you know about my displeasure, especially if I feel like you are manipulating the situation. Not only that I will tell others about it. And if like me, you happen to be in a small community, then your success in the business may be impacted to the negative. You never know who you are getting on the stage with you.

In fact Natural instinct is to help when you are made to feel apart of something not made to feel uncomfortable. As Dale mentioned there are plenty of ways to make an instant stooge without negativly impacting them.

bmat
Elite Member
 
Posts: 2921
Joined: Jul 27th, '07, 18:44
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Postby jdmagic357 » Mar 22nd, '11, 17:26

Nowhere in the literature that I've read, Corinda, Annemann or any other mentalist past or present have exploited natural instincts. That doesn't mean that it's not a viable and powerful tool to use.

As far as making one feel uncomfortable, even the act of bringing one on stage or into the spotlight is an uncomfortable experience. One who doesn't bring audience members on stage is presenting a masturbatory form of entertainment. There are also those who want to be made to feel uncomfortable, such as people who like horror shows. Certainly, your not suggesting they shouldn't be given what they want?

The days of the stead fast rules of magic and mentalism are surly changing with the prevalence of Bizarrism and story telling magic. However I do see how and why one might want to hold on to the past for comfort. :wink:

jdmagic357
 

Postby TonyB » Mar 22nd, '11, 17:42

I think that the Dr Q routine (published in Ormond McGill's mammoth Encyclopaedia of Stage Hypnosis) is the strongest instant stooge routine out there. Telepathy in Action by Orville Meyer is also a must-read resource.

At the end of the day every stage hypnosis show is just an example of instant stooge management.

User avatar
TonyB
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1523
Joined: Apr 6th, '09, 15:58
Location: Ireland

Postby jdmagic357 » Mar 22nd, '11, 17:58

TonyB wrote:I think that the Dr Q routine (published in Ormond McGill's mammoth Encyclopaedia of Stage Hypnosis) is the strongest instant stooge routine out there. Telepathy in Action by Orville Meyer is also a must-read resource.

At the end of the day every stage hypnosis show is just an example of instant stooge management.


I don't doubt it. What I'm talking about is the exploitation of natural instincts to accomplish the same sort of thing. It's not that tough people, just think of things like our natural aversion to fire, or the dark. Or maybe how one can "feel" when they're being looked at. Put you thinking caps on. Think outside normal convention. You might be shocked at what we come up with? :shock:

jdmagic357
 

Postby Tomo » Mar 22nd, '11, 19:13

Oh, for crying out loud. Do your own research, sock puppet! :evil:

Start with operant conditioning.

Image
User avatar
Tomo
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 9866
Joined: May 4th, '05, 23:46
Location: Darkest Cheshire (forty-bloody-six going on six)

Postby Nic Castle » Mar 22nd, '11, 19:28

What a load of nonsense. No one goes out to feel uncomfortable. People who go on stage may be nervous/ excited but it is not our place as entertainers to make them uncomfortable quite thge opposite we should make or attempt to make poeple relaxed and enjoy there experience.

You example of people going to watch a horror movie to feel uncomfortable. They may go to be frightened but that is an experience people who go to these shows enjoy.

If you set out to make people feel uncomfortable all you are doing if inviting complaints. The people who volunteer do so because ultimately whether they are scared or nervous they want to. If you start making them feel uncomfortable are you likely to get more volunteers are they going to be co-operative more than likely no.

Dual reality is a fantastic concept and if in my opinion probable not utilised as much as it could be and if likely to to pushed to the limits by magicians.

Tomo probably gave you the best advice though, do your own research. There are plenty of suggestioons on here for you to go at. It is probably more productive as well


Nic

Nic Castle
Preferred Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Nov 4th, '10, 20:15
Location: cheshire

Postby grant_m23 » Mar 22nd, '11, 19:30

jdmagic357 wrote:
TonyB wrote:I think that the Dr Q routine (published in Ormond McGill's mammoth Encyclopaedia of Stage Hypnosis) is the strongest instant stooge routine out there. Telepathy in Action by Orville Meyer is also a must-read resource.

At the end of the day every stage hypnosis show is just an example of instant stooge management.


I don't doubt it. What I'm talking about is the exploitation of natural instincts to accomplish the same sort of thing. It's not that tough people, just think of things like our natural aversion to fire, or the dark. Or maybe how one can "feel" when they're being looked at. Put you thinking caps on. Think outside normal convention. You might be shocked at what we come up with? :shock:



I think you'd find a little more support if your ideas were not so archaic in their principle, and started treating the spectator with a little more respect. You spoke about a human element on a separate thread - this is anything but. Always looking to think outside normal convention, but not when it involves treating the spectator like this - you're suggesting borrowing the qualities of being human and cashing them in at the expense of treating the spectator like a non-human prop. Don't even bother replying with something like "but that's the foundation of mentalism" or other tosh like that... you're suggesting playing on aversion to fire/dark - scary stuff for many when it's taken to the places you're talking about (maybe a bit of darkness for the whole audience, but not a lone individual - for the mundane purpose of instant stooging). Spectators (or volunteers) choose to take part in something because they expect a relatively light piece of entertainment... I doubt you could call this such.

User avatar
grant_m23
Senior Member
 
Posts: 321
Joined: Dec 20th, '07, 16:48
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland (35:SH)

Re: A new instant stooge principal?

Postby Part-Timer » Mar 22nd, '11, 20:34

jdmagic357 wrote:Usually one must get the person to play along with either a bribe like in a restaurant with the waiter or a blatant asking for help like as the person is brought on stage during the clapping acknowledgment.


Really? Still, what do/did people like Knepper, Berglas and Lesley know?

Insistence comes to mind, as in "you do feel that don't you" continuing with "we all feel like that when in the same situation". The volunteer is made to feel uncomfortable if he/she doesn't go along with what the performer says.


This sort of social compliance is often used by mentalists and, as Tony says, by hypnotists. I think the point is that people go along to avoid feeling uncomfortable, not that the performer makes them feel uncomfortable. I am pretty sure someone like Dunninger would have done this sort of thing!

We can also take advantage of "natural instincts", to have a person behave as we wish. Example if one was to get about 4 inches close to the face, it's natural for the person to feel uncomfortable. If we exploit this fact with a statement like "the image on the tarot card will cause you to feel a great discomfort" then showing that person say the devil, will indeed accomplish that fact, if brought 4 inches close to the participant.


However, this bit just doesn't work. It is setting out to make people feel awkward and unsettled, which is a bad idea. People are often reluctant to get up to help because they are embarrassed or think that they will be made to feel uncomfortable. Then you confirm that.

Are you hoping that they will grimace and then the rest of the audience thinks it is the picture doing that, rather than you shoving it in the participant's face?

Your proposal is kind of "angley". Do you think people will not notice that you are sticking a card right in someone's face?

What if they shy away or step back? Are you going to pursue them round the stage, or perhaps tell them to hold steady, while you wave a Tarot card inches from them?

Also, I think people will not say that they feel uncomfortable having a card put near them. If someone held something near my face, I'd just assume they had misjudged the distance, or were doing it deliberately (and therefore undermining the effect you wanted). I don't think I'd go, "Ooh, I feel all weirdly uncomfortable."

I might be completely wrong, and it can be a good idea to air thoughts like this. Sometimes they come to nothing, but sometimes you get a winner.

Part-Timer
Elite Member
 
Posts: 3085
Joined: May 1st, '03, 13:51
Location: London (44:SH)

Postby Jobasha » Mar 22nd, '11, 21:23

bmat wrote:Yup, bad idea. The minute you make somebody uncomfortable you failing at your job as an entertainer


If only comedians could realise this. The amount of comedians I've seen so many over the last year who have tried to pick on my group as were about ten years younger than the rest of the crowd. Trying to use student gags on us, when most of them finished Uni five years ago. It falls flat with the audience and usually leaves the comedian looking stupid as none of us are shy about answering back.

User avatar
Jobasha
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: May 27th, '08, 11:38
Location: Hull, UK (25:AH)

Postby jdmagic357 » Mar 22nd, '11, 22:30

Nic Castle wrote:If you set out to make people feel uncomfortable all you are doing if inviting complaints. Nic


Now who's talking nonsense? I guess performers like Dan Sperry, Criss Angel, and Jim Callahan are all to be complained about? I'm always amazed at those who think they know about our art, but don't have a clue as to where it's going, are the first to open their mouths with nonsense.

As to the other person you refer to, my signature says it all. :wink:

Part Timer; Look to Jim Callahan's Tea With Alice DVD to find out if people will notice putting the card in their face.

M23; I'm not really looking for support. I'm looking to open minds. :lol:

jdmagic357
 

Postby Nic Castle » Mar 23rd, '11, 01:45

jdmagic357 wrote:
Nic Castle wrote:If you set out to make people feel uncomfortable all you are doing if inviting complaints. Nic


Now who's talking nonsense? I guess performers like Dan Sperry, Criss Angel, and Jim Callahan are all to be complained about? I'm always amazed at those who think they know about our art, but don't have a clue as to where it's going, are the first to open there mouths with nonsense.

As to the other person you refer to, my signature says it all. :wink:


I guess you are talking about yourself as you know nothing about me.

If you would just open your mind you would have realised that you have actually been given good advice in this thread and been pointed in the direction to find out information to help you. You seem to dismiss that advice and and because you did not get the answer you wanted on a plate, you throw out silly remarks.

This seems to be a commen trait when you post. when someone you dont know disagrees or give an alternative view you claim they have no experience, have no understanding of "our art"

I have seen this in others, they usually have low self esteem. Listening to others, and learning from them from time to time helps us grow in knowledge and as a person. But it often means you have to put time and effort into learning and developing. Then again it is easier to quickly reply and talk more nonsense, making remarks about people when you actually know nothing about them. I am guessing you are good at making pancakes.

Nic

inserted examples 23/03/2011

I thought it would be better if I clarified this with an example of an item posted on this forum, which shows how making people feel uncomfortable.

There is the thread on this forum titled "George King - Blackpool 2011- Was it right to boo him off?" the audience was very uncomfortable and they were not even part of the act, just specs. The result of his performance were five pages of people complaining about his behaviour. How many of these would have been ameniable if he had been a magician needing a co-operative spec on stage?

Nic

Ps why the cynical signature, have you had a bad experience sometime.

Last edited by Nic Castle on Mar 23rd, '11, 10:18, edited 1 time in total.
Nic Castle
Preferred Member
 
Posts: 298
Joined: Nov 4th, '10, 20:15
Location: cheshire

Postby jdmagic357 » Mar 23rd, '11, 02:12

So Grant; were you able to find Jim's work? It's extremely difficult, but well worth you consideration, if this sort of thing interests you? I'm also willing to converse in pm with those wanting more info. Of course the trolls need not pm. :lol:

jdmagic357
 

Postby Dirty Davey » Mar 23rd, '11, 08:42

Of course that idea's not new! Music, lighting, subtle sugestion it's all been done before to envoke emotions and feelings in an audience.

User avatar
Dirty Davey
Senior Member
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Jul 21st, '06, 15:04
Location: Deepest Kent (30:AH)

Next

Return to Support & Tips

A web site set up to sell my book, THE STRIPPER DECK, and future magical/mentalism titles. Sorcery Shop - Home of the ITR Best prices around! Visit Magicbox for all the latest and best effects! Dude That's Cool Magic World-Of-Magic, Suppliers of quality Magic Worldwide Manufacturer of modern & unique magic apparatus!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests