talkmagic.co.uk

Trinity wrote:How about we let the moderator determine when a topic should be closed

Rest assured there are 6 pairs of Moderator eyes keeping a very close watch on this topic .

Well, first of all I don't see where this thread has any kind of "heat" that would warrant moderator involvement and secondly, I want to thank you Trinity for your kudos.

What I've shared disturbs many in magic but it is more because they know it to be true. The fact that more magic is exposed by performers is also a truth that most of us really want to ignore. Yet, a rather noted young blond bombshell with huge boobs was well known in the Vegas area as the best place to go if you wanted to learn how certain tricks worked... this bimbo was so bad she exposed the Dove Pan nearly every performance... but she's cute and mommy has clout in town e.g. she gets to play starlet. Rather than looking at how awful she is, most in the magic world (male dominated and testosterone influenced, I might add) just let her slide because of the T&A factor... oddly, we do the same thing with our chums at the clubs that do shoddy work and yet, for one reason or another, we pat them on the back and say "well done".

How does this sustain, improve upon and preserve our craft?

This is part of what Val was talking about in his comments about making magic better and yet, people B I T C H rather than looking at them selves and what they do that hurts this art rather than helps.

As the famed Sunday Morning Comic Guru Pogo stated long ago as he gazed into a mirror... I've seen the enemy, and we is it!

Trinity wrote:...I don't feel it has gotten into that age old Masked Magician bashing.

Really? You had me fooled. In fact, I was positive that when you read Craig's admonition not to open old wounds, you'd hem and haw and use circular logic to find an excuse to "continue down the war path" (as it were).

Now I suppose you're going to tell me that you were one of those magicians that was pi**ed when S.A.M, I.B.M. and Magic Castle formed W.A.M. because you didn't want to be automatically associated with their ridiculous witchhunt?*

(*I should add that I didn't make that last bit up. I no longer have the instant messaging records [or remember the name], but there was a time where I spoke with a magician who was a member of SAM or IBM and I asked, "So are you proud to be a member of WAM?" He asked what I meant and I explained about the three organizations banding together. He wasn't pleased to be automatically considered a member of WAM, without a chance to vote on it.)

OK folks, just one general warning which won't be repeated. Let's stick to the topic and the spirit of the thread and move away from personal comments - OK?

Don't get me wrong I was plenty Ticked off when that came on FOX. Sure I always like my vote count, but I felt that was really a no brainer for the three groups voicing out against the show. I was finacially hurt when it first came out, but like everyone always says the public has a short memory. Alot of the tricks he exposed were pretty out of date and people really didn't have the idea that those same principals work in alot of other illusions too, which helped in the end. Hey only so many places you can hide someone in a base.

Thats why Craig's input was great! I have heard from alot of Magicians, but never a builder.

There are alot of tricks exposed on youtube and other mass media now adays, far more than Val showed on the, what four episodes?

Now maybe you can understand how me and many other performers felt during that time. Having customers call you up and cancel events until the "smoke blows over". Having adults and kids yell out what they saw on TV and think that is how you are doing that certain effect. Even though it was not how it was done it still interupts the show/flow. Not that any of my illusions or tricks were broadcast I still found myself changing the show around which takes time and money.

Now I suppose you're going to tell me that you were one of those magicians that was pi**ed when S.A.M, I.B.M. and Magic Castle formed W.A.M. because you didn't want to be automatically associated with their ridiculous witchhunt?*

I would have voted yes if it had been brought to a vote. If someone attacks your lively hood I would think you would want to stand up for it?

What do you regard as a witchhunt? The part that legally there was nothing anyone could do? Or the fact that alot of people were ticked off at Fox and Val? As I recall WAM went after FOX and the advertisers (I am also not saying Val didn't get alot of heat from that). If Val didn't do it I am sure that somebody else would have. Could be I have my facts wrong, but wasn't Val approached by Fox and not the other way around? Can I ask what was the sum he was paid for doing the shows?

So have I seen changes in the magic world since then, sure. For the better, I would have to again answer yes. Do I think Val was single handed in making those changes, no not all of them, but maybe Craig can say whether he has made changes as a result of Val or has it just been from new innovative technologies and competition.

I had seen a bit of the show on Tv and the truth is it kinda ruined it for me cause when I was in Vegas and watching a magic show for some (not all) of the tricks I sat there knowing what was secretly going on when the magician was performing the trick because of that show that tv network should have never aired it (bt I guess they wanted the ratings) cause it takes away from the beauty that is magic and the art of illusion its so much better when your seeing a trick and your amazed and delighted instead of sitting there knowing how it is done its not right what he did thats why he wears a mask cause he is breaking the code and I think its awful I wish I never watched that show what he did was just wrong even on the internet there are sites where tricks are exposed and thats wrong cause it is ruining it for the people who truly appreciate it (there are some people out there who just wanna be entertained) they just wanna see an illusion not know the mechanics behind it

If Val was hanging out in all those shops and he could see what was on the horizon then exposing some of the older effects really was unnecessary. He tried to justify his actions by claiming he did it for the betterment of the art of magic. Sort of like me saying, "I ate all the cookies in the cookie jar so my wife would not get fat." We are told from day one, when we join the various magical societies, "We don't tell how the tricks are done." I don't like blatant exposure of what I study very hard to perfect. And it doesn't matter that some of these effects are 100 plus years old. The principles behind those tricks are the basis of what we are doing today. There are no new principles in magic, its how they are being applied to new ideas. If Vals ideals were high minded, he should have changed our art from the inside, instead of selling our secrets to network TV. I tend to think he would not have taken the mask off had no-one figured out who he was. I never heard of him before the exposure and he will go down in magic history as the guy that told magic secrets. Not a legacy I would want to leave.
Al

I too spotted mention of Val returning for a second series in early 2009 in MagicSeen this month.

I fondly remember Wayne Dobson saying that if Val Valentino ever turned up to Blackpool - he would leave with 2 broken legs.

Apparently he did apply for tickets, but Derek Lever passed on Wayne's kind words - needless to say, he decided against it.

It may have not revealed the most current tricks.
It may have not revealed the real method behind the effect.

But the mere concept that what you see is a trick, KILLS the illusion.
Before the Masked Magician the spectator went from perception to mystery.
After the Masked Magician the spectator goes from perception to hypotheses.

From "how did he do that?" now people ask "Where is the trap door? where is the mirror? Where is the switch?"

OR even worse, you might have developed a very novel method, but the public may disdain and ultrasimplify as "oh they all use mirrors" even when it is visibly evident that you haven't used one.
You know what I mean?

The spectator now has a conceptual knowledge of how tricks may be done.
Some amazement is lost, and without the amazement the illusion loses its magic.

Before, there was a charm by keeping the secret. My mother thrilled by amazement used to shout at me saying that David Copperfield must be possessed by demons or something like that... although she knew she was overreacting, supernatural powers were still a slight possibility: reality seemed to warp to laypeople. "I know it is a trick, but who knows... maybe...", that thought is what used to lurk in their minds.

Now after watching the Masked Magician, she is disillusioned. She doesn't jump anymore. She hypothesizes. She rationalizes.
Now, when I do a card trick to her, she begs me to not explain it to her.

My personal belief, from observation, is that the Masked Magician contaminated the minds of the public and magic will never be the same.

Quite right Sandokan. Agecroft and Dumpster please note.

I have been quite traumatised by the above two scoundrels who mention on another thread that they give away the secret to one of my greatest tricks.

At least the Masked Magician has the excuse that he gets paid for exposing. These two young miscreants do it for nothing. Quite disgraceful.

mark lewis wrote:Quite right Sandokan. Agecroft and Dumpster please note.

I have been quite traumatised by the above two scoundrels who mention on another thread that they give away the secret to one of my greatest tricks.

At least the Masked Magician has the excuse that he gets paid for exposing. These two young miscreants do it for nothing. Quite disgraceful.

I do think that if someone shows a genuine interest in learning magic as an art, then it would be ok to show them something to start them along the road wouldn't it?

No. There are enough awful magicians as it is. However, if you insist then show them the secret to the ball vase not to one of the greatest card tricks ever invented which I have performed for royalty.

spooneythegoon wrote:

mark lewis wrote:Quite right Sandokan. Agecroft and Dumpster please note.

I have been quite traumatised by the above two scoundrels who mention on another thread that they give away the secret to one of my greatest tricks.

At least the Masked Magician has the excuse that he gets paid for exposing. These two young miscreants do it for nothing. Quite disgraceful.

I do think that if someone shows a genuine interest in learning magic as an art, then it would be ok to show them something to start them along the road wouldn't it?

I don't know if you are referring to "agecroft and dumpster", which I am totally oblivious to what happened.
But if you are talking about the Masked Magician, you are wrong. That wasn't directed to enthusiasts or amateur magicians, that was directly focused for the layman. That is why it is so perverse.

Showing might be okay if it is ONLY to those who are genuinely interested for the arts, and not to the kids who can't scratch the itch. The latter are the ones who will probably spoil it for everyone else.

You have to be really careful and perceptive to spot the ones with inferiority complexes, the ones who think that doing a magic trick is about "fooling them"... and they don't want to feel like a fool, they want to feel wiser than the rest of the mortals.
Whenever they know the trick, they will boast their wisdom and ruin it.

Or the attention seekers (aka. "forever alone"), who tries to reveal secrets just to gain attention, care, affection, acknowledgement, etc...

These traits are the cancer of the trade.

mark lewis wrote:No. There are enough awful magicians as it is. However, if you insist then show them the secret to the ball vase not to one of the greatest card tricks ever invented which I have performed for royalty.

I didnt mean poker players picnic, I love that effect. I meant something like the french drop that they can choose to either pursue magic with, or not (because if they see it done by a good magician again they still wont spot it).

I, by the way, hugely dislike the masked magician. Luckily his almost unbeleivable lack of personality and entertainment value (also probably the reason he doesnt actually do magic rather than expose it like a youtube magician in front of his webcam) makes the show boring to laypeople as well.