talkmagic.co.uk

Dat8962:

Thank you for your input. You may very well be right about the comment that it was the reference to the rabbit smell that supposedly caused offense rather than the mere usage of panties in a trick. Of course, I don't think it was offensive. Furthermore, the written warning does not mention it.

Your reaction to the warning letter did not surprise me because a lot of facts are missing there. There is no history of sexual misconduct as you suggested.

Also, the joke about why computers are like men and why computers are like women is hardly sexual. I found that it has been widely circulated on the Internet, appears at CLEAN JOKE sites, and has even been used by some ministers in their sermons.

The fact is that Bob is white and had recently become the manager of a team of software testers that was staffed almost completely by blacks. The fact that they were all black was not at all relevant to him. The fact that many of them were incompetent WAS relevant, though. He tried to make some humane personnel changes without firing anyone. As they say, "no good deed goes unpunished."

The call to the ethics hotline was in retaliation for Bob's changes on the team. H.R. could not substantiate the complaint of racially motivated personnel changes, but they got stuck on the other "incidents."

You also are not fully aware of the context. Bob and I work in an environment in which some people, including women, make all kinds of off-the-wall sexual comments all the time in front of other people. The things that Bob did are tame by comparison.

I did not mean to mislead you by omitting facts. I simply wanted to focus on the magic trick in this thread.

Hi - in response...

The written warning does appear to mention the matter as it refers to the magic. It does not need to go into lots of detail in the letter as long as it was discussed at the disciplinary hearing. Just because you and your friend did not think it offensive, does not make it inoffensive to others.

As to the warning letter, I can;t comment on facts that were missing.

The joke about the computers may not have been sexual but it was apparently construed as sexist which is similarly enough for it to warrant disciplinary action in most organisations code of conduct.

I would advise against making this a racial issue as this appears to be a performance issue. Why mention colour and then, in the same sentence say that it's not relevant. You give the impression, rightly or wrongly that there is an underlying issue and most HR departments and people will pick up on this. It's like digging a hold and then finding that you can't get out.

If someone is incompetant at their job and you are a manager, you need to sit down on an individual level and discuss the issues direct. You should record what is said and take advice from HR. They are the professionals afterall This was perhaps a misjudgement on your friends part.

The ethics hotline were right in their judgement that from what appears to have happened, there was a case to answer - afterall, that's what they are there for. Context is a very subjective matter and things can easily be said out of context, misunderstood etc. but what's said can't be taken back. You have to hope that the person see's reason and trusts that you didn't mean what you said in the way that they understood it. In respect of what other people do, two wrongs do not make a right. If you have evidence of this then you could certainly claim that you have been victimised as there is no consistency in the process that you have been tried by.

The magic trick is not the issue here!

I forgot to mention.........

If your colleague has been put into a position of managing people and there is no documented process on how this is done, and your colleague has received no structured training on dealing with staff issues, does not have this responsibility in his job description etc. then he could perhaps argue with some success that the company disadvantaged him by putting him in this situation without appropriate support.

Therefore, the company is partly responsible for his his lack of judgement.

That said, all things being considered, unless a caveat or rider can be placed on the records by Bob regarding the sitaution on a 'without prejudice' basis, I would swallow hard - omit magic from my work repetoire and keep my head down for the duration of the probationary period.

Vendettas and witch-hunts are nasty things which are hard to prove and often listened to by those spineless, risk-averse plebs that get into management roles.

Hope that this works out well,

Vic

What I've found interesting is how the poll has swung from a 'yes' in the first few days of this post to a definate 'maybe'.

There are a few spineless, risk adverse plebs as you elequently put it vic in all walks of life, not just in managment but funnily enough, most do seem to end up in HR or Marketing departments

I voted as a maybe. In most cases I would have thought that the inclusion of pants in a routine would be totally acceptable, though there are always a few exceptions. However, if Bob already knew that there were members of his audience who may have a grudge against him and were as petty as they seem I think he was very silly to do so many things that could be construed as tasteless or even discriminatory.

dat8962 wrote:What I've found interesting is how the poll has swung from a 'yes' in the first few days of this post to a definate 'maybe'.

There are a few spineless, risk adverse plebs as you elequently put it vic in all walks of life, not just in managment but funnily enough, most do seem to end up in HR or Marketing departments

As someone who has been a member of the IPD (Institute of Personnel and Development) I understand that much of this stems from the fact that many people who work as secretarial support in HR (Human Resiurces) Departments end up taking over the jobs of those who might have had training when they leave and therefore many of the HR 'professionals' are often fairly incompetent, rank amateurs. This accounts for the extremely low levels of competence in HR staff in general.

This situation coupled with fear of sacking or 'training up/training out' policies on the grounds that the claimthat they are sexist/racist/(insert name), means that this is an especially good place to collect the dregs of your workforce. Couple this with the fact that personnel management as was is now done by line managers (areas like attendance, sickness, etc.) and you have renummeration, constipation and Julie Walters hairdresser clones!

This may be PC related, it may be part of the feminisation of the workplace, fear of litigation and many more singly or together - fact is if one person feels a threat, condemned, condescened to, or just malicious - action will result and the perpetrator (real or contrived) will be hit and the result - no smoke without fire!, mud sticks, etc.

I go for the less safe routes but then I don't think I've ever been safe or sensible, but I'm real and honest and probably stupid!

Keep the bonce down Bob,

Vic

ab5zn wrote:Even if you do not have any comments about the panty trick, please vote in my poll. The results could help us, in which case we might use them. (If they are not favorable, then we won't use them.)

I have voted, howvere i don't see that an anonymous internet-based poll is going to help - you'd only need to set up 30 or so email addresses and register each one with the site to vote.

Maybe try the big-guns? Penn and Teller? Copperfield? Write to them and see what happens.

Interesting topic though - I think Bob is very unfortunate in all this.

Zack wrote:

ab5zn wrote:Even if you do not have any comments about the panty trick, please vote in my poll. The results could help us, in which case we might use them. (If they are not favorable, then we won't use them.)

I have voted, howvere i don't see that an anonymous internet-based poll is going to help - you'd only need to set up 30 or so email addresses and register each one with the site to vote.

Maybe try the big-guns? Penn and Teller? Copperfield? Write to them and see what happens.

Interesting topic though - I think Bob is very unfortunate in all this.

Zack, you are correct that we could fabricate poll results. I think being a magician has led you to think a bit too deceptively!

We work for a huge U.S. company that doesn't give a flip about the opinions of a bunch of magicians anywhere. The poll results, if we choose to present them, will be used as a minor piece of "evidence" in conjunction with much other evidence that Bob never had a chance to present. I put up the poll because I was really curious about where other magicians would come down on the subject. And no, we have not fabricated any results, just so that everyone knows.

Here are just a couple of points that Bob never got a chance to make:

The person who made the accusation had previously participated in a formal complaint of racism against another manager. Since the company will certainly take into account any previous accusation against someone when accused, it is only fair to also take into account previous accusations that have been made by an accuser.

Our company makes provocative photos of women in panties available for download from its website. Our company also sends us emails celebrating homosexuality and bisexuality, which has nothing to do with the business we are in. While I'm not personally interested in taking a stand on the morality of homosexuality here, I do know that approximately 50% of U.S. citizens consider it to be either abnormal or immoral. If the company cares about whether a handful of employees are "offended" by a magic trick involving a pair of panties, then it would seem reasonable for the company to care that thousands of the employees are offended either by the company's stance on homosexuality or by the fact that the company takes a stance on such a topic that has nothing to do with our business. (NOTE: If one of you readers happens to be gay, please do not get mad at me. I simply think that what's "good for the goose is good for the gander." If the company wants to make sexuality an issue by promoting homosexuality, then it should also be a bit more lenient and tolerant where jokes and conversation are concerned. Of course, I still maintain that there was actually nothing sexually provocative about the magic trick.)

Yes, the plot thickens.

Thanks for your input.

nickj wrote:I voted as a maybe. In most cases I would have thought that the inclusion of pants in a routine would be totally acceptable, though there are always a few exceptions. However, if Bob already knew that there were members of his audience who may have a grudge against him and were as petty as they seem I think he was very silly to do so many things that could be construed as tasteless or even discriminatory.

Nick, I mostly agree with you.

Bob had no reason to think that someone had a grudge against him before the complaint was filed. If he had known that, I'm sure he would have been extremely cautious. He claims that in doing each of the things mentioned in the accusation, he was trying to "break the ice" or demonstrate that he was receptive to tearing down walls, engendering free and open communication in class and meetings, and--pardon the cliché--"thinking outside of the box."

Bob received emails from two women who were in our class in which he did the "panty trick." One woman called him "some kind of genius." The other said that this was the most interesting class she has attended in 14 years with the company. Those emails were provided to H.R., but evidently they were of no relevance.

Looks like Bob's up against the system in a big way.

It's always sad when the majority of the people enjoy or support a person and the way they operate and yet the minority can, and do, rule the roost.

PC is a problems, especially becuase liberals who fight for the freedom to have not rules are the most venemous and neaty people if you happen to be someone with whom they disagree. Freedom is I'm afraid a very narrow one way street.

This is shown by the fact that mitigation in the form of comments praising an act or offering balanced support is nearly always ignored (in case it further offends the complainant and incurs their wrath against the management or HR - what a great headline that always makes )

Tell Bob to keep chin up, some day the reasonable people will regain control,

Vic

Vic,

I agree 100%.

Dave