talkmagic.co.uk

This is partially true I think, and for quite a while after the thread mentioned above we always referenced it whenever anyone suggested purchasing from Ellusionist. This died out when the overwhelming majority of posts regarding Ellusionist products turned into "Whoa, ninja is great, where can I learn more hard-core stealth moves to blow away my school friends" (translated, of course, from txt spk). It seemed to me that it is this group are Ellusionist's main customer base, and I am sad to say I that I don't think they give a flying aardvark for the rights of originators or the standpoint of respected members of forums, they are going to go where the devastating and mindblowing magic with razor-hot impact can be found.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you've written Nubin but I must ask the question how many people say online that they won't deal with Penguin in order to 'fit in' with the rest of the membership but actually do still purchase there in secret?

Putting the ethics aside, Penguin sell some stuff that's not been available elsewhere and is hugely popular. Take the Sankey stuff that was exclusive to Penguin for some time as an example.

I wonder how many magicians will see what they think is a killer effect, and put their ethics aside to own 'just that one' trick from Penguin if it's not available elsewhere, or is perhaps £10 more expensive from another dealer?

I have checked the DVD in my PS2 for you and unforuntately it doesn't work. Sorry it's not better news.

ace of kev wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:We hear many people complain about how this is so unethical and yet, a day don't go by I don't see a half-dozen or more posts of people admitting that they patronize these theives... if we don't patronize them in any way, they will no longer exist and cannot hurt magic as they are doing. It's rather simple.

Ok. I can get where everyone is coming from, but if these people did not do that, then we would not know the tricks that they sell!!!!!

If they are thieves, then aren't we all if we all do effects to people? Do the people we show know who invented it? So to them we are passing effects off as our own are we not?

I can see the point about Magic Makers. They really do rip other peoples stuff.

What is it about living in the UK and splitting hairs?

If you purchase an item from an unauthorized source or knowing that the item is a deliberate knock-off to someone elses' work, you are in the wrong... how much simpler do we need to make it?

Technically speaking, if you didn't buy the Harbin book and you perform and own a Zig Zag (or any of the other bits from it) you are in the wrong and do not have the legal rights/permissions to do so and yet, there are thousands of copies to the Zig Zag world wide and only 140 copies (or something like that) of the Harbin book itself???

How many variations to "Death Trap" presently exist on the market and yet none give Gary Kurtz or Banachek any sense of credit for it, let alone the fact that neither of them ever released the rights to the routine and yet, there are versions with knives, broken bottles, and a plethora of methods over-saturating the market and essentially ruining what was once a great piece of mentalism.

I'm one of the first to scream over the fact that some of this ethics and morality stuff is getting a bit carried away and far too much of it hosts political favoritism but, if people are going to scream about protecting magic and giving credit where it is due, then they need to live it.

Yes, I have heard from a couple of sources that Elusionist is trying to change their reputation. Sadly, I don't think any of the primaries will ever trust them. Penguin on the other hand, is oblivious and believes everyone needs to kiss their hindside... given how much the management of a certain large green forum endorses them and people like Tilford, it kind of helps you understand why it's that forum that seems to be one of the primary sources for black market trades and bootlegging.

Bottom line is, deliberate acts of theft are wrong no matter what and they all hurt this craft we claim to love.

Craig Browning wrote:What is it about living in the UK and splitting hairs?

Careful, note that this is TalkMagic.co.uk, you are slightly outnumbered!

Hello Flunkie

Thanks for checking the PS2 for me. Looks like it will be a copy of XB plus a DVD player then, but as was stated earlier in the thread, DVD players have come down in price to the point where they are nearly given away

Rushie

Craig Browning wrote:What is it about living in the UK and splitting hairs?

What is it about living in the US and making massive generalisations

One of the many benefits of places like TM and others is that the realities of rip offs, knock offs and downright thefts can be mentioned, publicised, and discussed so for this reason I'm reasonably sure most of us here would think twice before buying a known copied item. The problem comes, as mentioned above, where newcomers don’t have this knowledge and buy something because it's cool, mind-blowing etc and probably because it doesn't cost much. There's an existing thread here somewhere about Magic Makers and the items they produced without permission but many of the reputable magic supply sites here and in the US used to sell them. As a conscious decision, I'd make sure before buying anything that it wasn't one of theirs but, through complete ignorance in the early days, I already have three or four of their items which are known to be copies. I can't do a great deal about what I've already bought but, with the knowledge from TM, I can make sure that I don’t repeat the mistake. If anyone sees any of these knock off items on sale at reputable suppliers, the decent thing to do would be to contact them and point out that the item is a copy. Depending on the reply you get back, you'll know whether to deal with that source again. If enough of us do this sort of thing it will eventually have an impact, I doubt it will stop the process completely but it will certainly help!

Check out this site, shows originals and copies, many from Magic Makers amongst others.


http://www.magicunlimited.com/magic_fakers.htm

nickj wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:What is it about living in the UK and splitting hairs?

Careful, note that this is TalkMagic.co.uk, you are slightly outnumbered!

Pardon... I just went through hell at another forum because of an individual that loved to misconstrew my meanings... it became a roundiround between he a chum or two of his and myself and it was all hair splitting and twisting the meaning of words... not fun!

What is it about living in the US and making massive generalisations

I wish I knew the answer to that one... our culture loves placing everything that might be remotely similar under the same header e.g. I guess it's just a matter of how our culture affects us. That and the fact that most Americans live with an exceptional sense of "attitude" in which they see themselves above all others... I try not to be that way, but there are those days and those circumstances... well, we all have them, here however it seems to be a matter of osmosis based influence (and we complain about the French being rude )

I just went through hell at another forum

Yup, most of us have ploughed through that thread with great dismay and anger - not nice, not necessary and certainly not being repeated on TM - we're Ladies and Gentlemen here!

Craig Browning wrote: (and we complain about the French being rude )

You got that right - they are officially the rudest nation on the planet!