talkmagic.co.uk

Mark said: " I believe that when he gets it wrong he really does believe he thinks he got it right."

I can see this, but when he is presented with irrefutable, empirical evidence to the contrary (and not just subjective opinion) he refuses to even countenance it and launches into another tirade (or, as happened with me, simply repeats the falsehood over and over again, despite several people looking it up and realising that he was wrong).

One of Harry's books turned me away from c*** (not the best), shop-bought 'trick's and onto learning basic sleights. Influential to be sure.
T.

Legend of magic he may be, but Mr Lorayne comes across very badly on forums. Self-obsessed, egotistical and sounds like some QVC sales person pushing books on you every five minutes. Earlier this year he joined Magic Bunny and searched for any thread that mentioned him, no matter how ancient it was, and posted on it, often digging up long forgotten arguments. If it didn't concern him, he had nothing to say on the subject.

As a magician I have great respect for him and his work, but as a person.....

IanKendall wrote:Mark said: " I believe that when he gets it wrong he really does believe he thinks he got it right."

I can see this, but when he is presented with irrefutable, empirical evidence to the contrary (and not just subjective opinion) he refuses to even countenance it and launches into another tirade (or, as happened with me, simply repeats the falsehood over and over again, despite several people looking it up and realising that he was wrong).

That is because he is not handled correctly. If one does not use the diplomacy that I am renowned for you will get negative results. You should never tell a man he is wrong. I didn't come up with this wisdom. Dale Carnegie of "How to Win Friends and Influence People" said it. If you tell somone they are wrong an automatic defense mechanism kicks in. Especially if the one who made the mistake has an ego to defend. And I don't just mean Harry Lorayne. It applies to us all to a greater or lesser degree. Harry, admittedly to a greater degree.

However, if someone is approached in a kind diplomatic way and the mistake pointed out tactfully or better still indirectly, the error will often be realised by the person who will react in a more positive manner. It defies common sense to me, knowing what Harry's personality is like to correct him in a "ha, ha-I got you!" manner which is usually the way the idiots on the magic cafe go about it. I get the impression that in a lot of cases the posters are not correcting things for the benefit of historical accuracy but more to bait Harry Lorayne knowing that he is going to get mad. I don't see the point of it.

I myself pointed out on the Magic Cafe that Harry could not possibly have invented the presentation of "The Lazy Man's Card Trick" Did he get mad at me? No! And I discussed it with him for a page or two and he didn't get angry in the slightest. Why? Because I had the common sense and decency not to bait and harass an 85 year old man. I treated him with the respect that an old maestro, albeit a cranky one, deserves. It was only when all the braindead idiots decided to join in and use what I discovered through MY research to torment him unmercifully. Up to that point everything had been perfectly civilised. If I had foreseen what idiocy would erupt I would have kept quiet and not explained what I knew to be the case.

What on earth is the point of telling someone he is wrong? Sometimes it is best just to let it go. If you have to then do it in a tactful considerate way. I shall be happy to act as a role model for in this regard.

Ironically, this is exactly what I did...

There was an error in his Mathematical Wizardry book. He mentioned that he was going to reprint it, so I dropped him a very pleasant email saying that I had found this mistake, and he might think about correcting it in the second edition. Even Mark knows that I can be very polite when I want to be.

The first email came back that I was simply wrong. I pressed the point, and was told - again - that I was wrong, and an idiot to boot.

Now, I can take being called names, but I do take offence when proof is absolute yet I am still being accused; so I pressed again. Harry, both in private and public, repeatedly gave the same, completely false (and verifiably so) answer - in red capital letters. I got several emails from people who looked it up, and then told me that he was wrong. And we had a chuckle.

It doesn't matter how you approach him; the merest suggestion that he is not 100% correct in _anything_ is an affront to him. No one can take away his legacy towards magic, but there is a danger that he is going to be remembered, also, as someone incapable of rational discourse.

Well, I had no trouble with him. I patiently pointed out that he could not possibly have devised the presentation of the Lazy Man's Card Trick but he took no offence whatsoever. That is because I merely said that I was "puzzled" and that "there must be an explanation for it". I let him save face. And in with it I mixed a lot of praise and glory for him. In point of fact there is a lot of crediting given to others in his various books. Sure, he misses out on occasion but no worse than anyone else who writes about magic.

I believe that harry lorayne is very renowned magician for cards tricks.

I am a massive fan of harry.Harry is a legendary , I love his work especially his stuff connected with Poker. I can't believe anyone serious in magic would have left him out but then again, we live in a time when people believe David Copperfield is a great Mentalist.

Harry Lorayne is THE magician who really lit my (magic) fire way back in the mid 70's. I started corresponding with him 35 years ago and first met him 20 years ago. Since that time we've dined together, chatted, sessioned and i've contributed material to both his magazine Apocalypse and one of his Best of Friends books. He's always been very kind and helpful to me; and I've watched him be very kind to all others around him.

If you know and understand his roots and childhood era, it helps you understand his "street fighter" persona. As he says himself, he's a kid of the (20's) depression. And when you have fought your way from rock bottom to the top, it can make one feisty and protective. Try and remember that he taught himself everything from writing to creating, publishing and performing and then there is all the memory stuff. What an achievement, and he was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Quite the opposite, in fact. The folks on the cafe wind him up (on purpose); and that isn't fair or kind. I've suggested to him that he leave the cafe. But, he's a fighter...

His contribution to the magic fraternity is both important and massive. Meet him in person and enjoy his wealth of knowledge, skill, fun, stories and kindness. Back in the mid 70's, he helped a shy/lonely teenager (me) find a way in life. For that I am forever grateful.

Paul Gordon

Paul - that is a great story. I have read many of the attacks on him on the Cafe, many seemed very unfair, but after your tale yes its easy to see why he reacts how he does.

Hey, if he was any different we would not have the great Mr Gordon with all his wonderful books/Dvds as we have now!!!

So we should thank Harry, not just for his own works which are tremendous, but for inspiring yourself and no doubt many others.

i must say his ambitious card is very good or i like it any way its so funny and clever i love it i got alot of inspiration from him

It seems that poor old Harry has now been banned from the Magic Cafe. I suppose it had to happen sooner or later.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... forum=2&15

Ask him to call in here, we're far nicer people!

All I can say is, if it hadn't been for Harry Lorayne I would probably never have gotten into real sleight of hand magic. I started doing magic tricks when I was 8 but right up into my early 20's I was doing dealer item magic and 'Head Magic' as Harry calls it. I never touched upon sleight of hand, other than a French Drop then around 32 years ago I read Harry's, 'The Magic Book', it made learning the sleights very easy and there is some strong material in there, I still perform some of them. I would thoroughly recommend that book to any beginners out there along with the more obvious books.

After reading the book, I bought some of Harry's other more advanced material. Over the years I have gained great pleasure performing sleight of hand magic, so, regardless of what some people think of him I will always be grateful.

Mandrake wrote:Ask him to call in here, we're far nicer people!

Quite frankly I think it is all the fault of the Magic Cafe letting it all get out of hand. Badly moderated to be frank. I honestly don't know why they couldn't have nominated one moderator to simply watch Harry posts and the responses to them. They could have deleted his angry responses and his posts pushing his products incessantly and deleted the posts which were made simply and deliberately to provoke him. And they could have locked more threads.

Some of the most unpleasant conflicts have erupted time and again in any thread that Harry was involved in. I don't see why it was so hard to moderate them properly since Harry very rarely, if ever, wandered out of the card trick section.