talkmagic.co.uk

It's just trickery, we all know that - its no different than being a juggler. Its a display of skill, tricks and props that you have bought, it shouldn't have any affect on or be affected by one's religion (as far as I can see it ).

EXACTLY what i wanted to say much earlier in this post!

I don't see anything wrong with believing in a God who "might not" exist. I'd rather spend my life living under false beliefs than I'd be wrong when I died

Ditto

If I'm wrong then who cares...i wont know or care about that when I'm dead.

But if I'm right then FAB for me.

I'm sure nop one means to patronising but can we cut the "you're young" from the debate - no one says you're young why don't you have a faith? start questioning athiesm this instant!

You're old and cynical? it's annoying age doesn't have anything to with religion my step-father came to faith at 46 - it's about experience and I've had plenty of bad experiences to make me cynical enough - just a side note

EckoZero wrote:Firstly. God doesn't cause tsunamis and the like.
Plates collide. Happens all the time.
It's the way the Earth was made, so in some way, it fits in.
God doesn't make stuff like that happen.

But God did create the world. And a flawed one. One that He knew will kill innocent people. What need did He have to create a world capable of that in the first place?

The other is the question of where is God.
Yes, it would be easy for God to put his hand up and stop the tsunami from ever reaching land. But it's stated in the Bible that our belief must come through faith rather than seeing miracles etc.

Due to Free Will, God can't intervene in obvious ways like that. However, had He not created a flawed planet it wouldn't have happened in the first place, and we would never have known He had intervened.
There are also examples in the Bible of God intervening in such a manner that it seems obvious that He existed. The Flood was God intervening, as was the 10 Plagues, as was sending His Son to earth and giving him the capacity to create miracles. I don't see why He would intervene then and not now.

Where was God through the tsunami?
God was in the hearts of every person who chucked a quid in the collection bucket at their local. In the hearts of every person who did a sponsored event to raise money.
God was everywhere.
The whole world united... Man can't do that. He is incapable.
That's where God was.

I threw quite a few quid into the tubs, but not because God was in me. I did it because it was a human desire to help each other - I think people are capable of acts of kindness on their own merit.

Its an interesting debate, one that will probably never be finished! As long as it never turns nasty or abusive then its a healthy thing for all people to engage in, trying to comprehend the really big and important issues in life!

hmm - didn't mean to offend. What I meant was that when you're young you see things differently to when you've been around a while.

As for magic just being tricks - that's where I disagree. Let's say it has the potential to be a lot more than that. A really good book - which in a roundabout way deals with a lot of what has been discussed in this thread is "Magic and Meaning" - Eugene Burger, Robert E. Neale - a really good read

Might have to check that out I was well impressed with Burger when I read the Performance of Close Up Magic.

I know you weren't trying to offend mate no worries

Unfortunately it's rather difficult to get hold of - it took me a few months to find a copy.

I wont argue here too much, because it's really not that healthy to drag this far off a thread. And I might start getting philosophical! (Oo-err missus )

But as a general answer...

Ok, God originally created a perfect Earth. Then Adam and Eve ballsed it up, so God sort of stopped upkeeping the place so much.

I see what you mean about God intervening then. But when did God do something so bold as to stop a tsunami hitting? Only Noah knew about the impending flood, the Phaoroh had his own magicians turn sticks into snakes etc to disprove that Moses had any power and God didn't actually switch on a big neon sign that said "Look! Here is my son!" lol. It was foretold, and people came to their own conclusions, as you are free to do

One last point - if the reason you donated to the tsunami was really out of human kindness, why only to the tsunami?
Why not to every cancer charity you see, every hopsice and mental health group you see...
If it were just as simple as "human kindness", you'd be a very poor man by now

Just think about it...
I wont debate on here anymore, but I'm willing to take this to PM if you want to mate

Its an interesting debate, one that will probably never be finished!

agree

As for magic just being tricks - that's where I disagree. Let's say it has the potential to be a lot more than that.

This is where things such as sceonce and occult ideas / beliefs (Cant spell - no pun intended here) and related things come in.
I know enough to make my decision on whether to involve myself in it or not. Which is enough for me.

MagicTom wrote:This is where things such as sceonce and occult ideas / beliefs (Cant spell - no pun intended here) and related things come in.
I know enough to make my decision on whether to involve myself in it or not. Which is enough for me.

Actually - that's not what I was talking about.

For example:
Take a simple bill switch. You could change a bill into a piece of paper, then back again. Nice trick - hopefully good reaction. Or you could use it to show that maybe the value we place in that printed piece of paper (money) is the real illusion - really just a piece of paper if you open your eyes...

to add to the bill switch - you could change a contract with the devil for your soul into a blank sheet of paper, or flash paper and burn it...

the darker presentations are very appealing to me, yet i feel absolutely no urge to slaughter anyone except maybe shane ritchie...

would any religious people buy anything from say blackhart.co.uk? where do you draw your line out of interest?

Now you're stirring

I'm not so much into 'dark' magic - it doesn't fit my personality. I do see the merit in it, though. Fear is a very real emotion...

(although I don't see myself as a religious person so that doesn't really answer your question - although I don't need to tell the future to guess what some of the replies are going to be)

...i think the darkest presentations can still shed a fair amount of light if you so wish...

...the whole battle between good and evil is very emotional, look at films, from star wars to night of the hunter...

emotional hooks make for the best magic experiences i think...

love conquering hate, sometimes destruction can create something even more beautiful, depends on the context...

abraxus wrote:would any religious people buy anything from say blackhart.co.uk? where do you draw your line out of interest?

No, personally probably not.

Not because i have anything at all against that company or the guy who runs it because i dont. It also nothing to do with beliefs etc.
But they specialise in products such as tarot cards (just using as example)
and stuff that i would not use.

abraxus wrote:...i think the darkest presentations can still shed a fair amount of light if you so wish...

...the whole battle between good and evil is very emotional, look at films, from star wars to night of the hunter...

emotional hooks make for the best magic experiences i think...

love conquering hate, sometimes destruction can create something even more beautiful, depends on the context...

Agreed
I think that's also where myth comes in - magic being an early 'vehicle' for myth (shamans etc.)

hmm - I now need to go and perform. I'm getting caught up in this discussion and have lost track of the time. I'll catch it later..

Mark - "God created the earth - a flawed one" and "he knew innocent people would die"...

First point: we flawed the earth ourselves.
Second point - and this is what a lot of people react to badly - what do you class as "innocent"? Generally "quite good"? "Good outweighs the bad"? Or, as Rob Gordon from High Fidelity would say, "think of the top 5 worst things you've done in your life... now who's the ******* assh*le?"

EckoZero focused on the positive side of "where is God", which I think is the right thing to do. But if you'll permit me for a second to look at the not-so-pretty side:
"where was God on 9/11... where was God when the tsunami struck...?" Well, he was where you put him during every other minute of your lives. Or, to put in another way, where is God in your wars? Where is God when people have affairs? Where is God when you're campaigning to stop Bible readings in school assemblies? If you don't believe in God, you can't blame him for anything.

It's funny - after natural disasters or man-made disasters, it's always the people who profess not to believe in God that get all indignant and "wronged" - where is God now? How can he do this to us poor innocent humans? As if to forget that they have been systematically driving him out of their lives. If you've been battling against God, and things screw up - what's the logical progression?! Blame God?! Nuh-uh! If a child won't heed a mother's advice and gets hurt - directly or indirectly - what conclusion can they draw? Well, how about "this isn't working, let's try Mum's way!"

Believers on the other hand; they don't profess to know why it happened, but they know that what they're called to do is to roll up their sleeves and show some love and compassion. Watch interviews with survivors or families of victims of 9/11 - who are the ones who are angry at God, and who are the ones who have found "peace that passes all understanding." I know which one I'd rather be.