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Hmm I was harping on about this type of shock magic somewhere else on the forum here : http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/viewtopic.ph ... 991#121991. The thing is magic is evolving just like music, you had rock n roll then came along something the punk then elctronica etc etc. and yes I do worry about there being a million and one Blaine clones , but you have to admit that Blaine has brought magic to the forefront again. Ask a layman to name a magician a lot will say Blaine so am I blaming Blaine for the new shock magic needles in arms even bittern coin to some extent well yes and no. love Blaine or hate him as I said above he has made magic “popular” see him as the Iron maiden of magic if you well then Angel comes along the new rock n roll magician we will say he is Fear Factory or some one like that. Now we can see the link back to the classical age of magic such as the Sinartras all most of magic. Johnny Thompson we will call him the sinatra era of magic. So we have a common thread running through magic like we do with music the MTV generation has got its self a Ghost deck.

The art of magic is such a broad umbrella now but its fundamentals is a performance art running way back to some cave man got 3 shells and 3 stones and invented the cups and balls. And us has magicians must realise that we see magic as our baby we want to protect it nature it. We don’t want cheap effects that a 13 year old boy with black lipstick and the personality of a dead mouse running round saying his a magician I don’t want it you don’t want.

Time are a changing though we got Blaine , Angel and 13 year old lipstick clad boys running around. Gone are the days of ken Brooke and the likes. it’s a shame but its happened. These gag type tricks to us who have spent hours , days , weeks , months and years performing are gags but to the play station generation who wants to master it in 10 seconds (the world) , there is a bittern coin etc etc, I see let them have it because being able to borrow a coin and vanish it will be a much stronger effect. So even though Ken Brooke and co have gone and the Punk rock magicians with STS are here, I see it just being a fad. Because one day you be out there in the big wide world with out a gimmick on you and you be offered a deck of cards and the immortal “show me a trick” will come up.

No matter how young or old we are slight of hand magicians are the vanguard of magic.

Enjoyable and interesting thread thanks
Most of what I have to say has been said in one form or another before, but hey it's nice to know people feel the same way
I to like doing kids, the look on their faces just does it for me.
I also like table magic (just for freinds), I always take magic with me and if it's right and the mood is good I do some.
Magic is there to make people happy and that is what I love the most about it. What is magical is the look on their faces, the feeling you give. Not the £10 trick!
This leads me to think that maybe there is no such thing as a bad trick, just a bad presentation of said trick
Magician or Magical entertainer, well magical entertainer everytime and there is a difference, sometimes small but sometimes ALL the difference.
I was fortunate to work for some very good people (i used to be their gardener)and what they said to me was this...

Everybody reads shakespear, most at school, to all but a few it's a bore BUT to READ shakespear on a stage and capture people in it's spell is magical.

Same words read out, VERY different feeling
To end with (and this may have been said by someone on this forum) think about your favorite magician, if you remember him for one of his tricks then he is not a truly great magician. If on the other hand you remember him for his performances........

I grew up in the US watching Doug Henning, Blackstone (saw him at the Hershey theatre in the 1970s), and was a member of the Keystone Conjurers run by John Fedko in Camp Hill Pennsylvania. I attended a SAM convention and saw Del Ray do his amazing close-up and stage show. And while at Louis Tannen's, saw Kaufmann doing some great con work.

Inspired by these very different performers, I stuck with the practice and was mentored by a wonderful magician named Joe Homchek, who pulled me aside one day and said, 'I now want you to stop buying tricks and learn the art of magic.' That's when I got Bobo and Expert at the Card Table. My regular trips to the magic shop always included a mini lesson, extra tips, better handling, and hints at the next stage in my formation.

I found that in those years when I was training and starting to do shows, I was (and I still am) completely hooked on the 'feeling' I get when I see quality magic performed. In Absolute Magic, Darren Brown summarises this feeling well when he describes similar reactions when he was a kid to seeing his favourite magicians. A good magician should be able to walk into the room and create an atmosphere of expectation. The spectators do not actually need to see an effect for some time as the magician creates this atmosphere and prepares the audience for what is about to occur.

Many of our threads have the general theme of 'go back to basics' 'learn the sleights', 'read the classics' (Royal Road, Bobo, Downs, Corinda, etc.) and 'develop you own style'.

There is naturally a tension between wanting to learn new effects, follow the new trends, and being able to do the latest 'hot' thing. I am totally guilty of this as I get a 'kid in a candy shop' feeling reading the latest review and waiting for the latest effect to arrive in the post (CUPS is probably the most frequent acronym on this forum ).

But what is interesting is that all these effects are using classic principles of magic and mentalism that have been adapted in some way to fit our times, fashions, and technological advances. Capitalism always produces its detritus, but also inspires innovation, adaptation, and competition, which keeps us all on our toes (think of all the price differences between suppliers, etc). While the crud to quality ratio is high, the magic market has produced some amazing effects, which continue to astound our audiences.

I always find it amusing and confirming when after I do a show filled with a mix of the classics and the new stuff, I ask people how they liked the show and what was their favourite part. They mostly say 'I really like that damn cup out of which you produced an orange, an apple, and a pear!' or 'that thing with the little green balls and a change purse handle', or ' how did you know I was going to pick the queen of hearts, and how did it turn upside down in your deck of cards?'.

I guess I will always go for effects that are plausible to the audience in the fairness with which I am able to present them, while producing an astounding result.

I stumbled across this thread and it's really grabbed my attention.
I spent a while this afternoon trying to satisfy a sort of thirst for something new to add to my growing collection of magic. The thing is, nothing on most of the magic sites grabbed my attention. Not even slightly (chortle).
What struck me most about this was that I found myself instead drawn to presentational aspects of effects I can already perform. Using different props which can have a story attached to them to enhance an effect "from hell" stylee is really starting to appeal more to me now than the next big, mass marketed gimmick or effect.
I do still get drawn in by some of these types of items, though, when I see them now, I begin to wonder how I can make them work for me. I start to wonder if they could fit a presentational style through which I want people to experience the magic I perform. If they don't (and mostly they don't), I just ignore them and move on, whereas, a few years ago I would certainly have just bought them anyway for the sake of knowing and performing the secrets and for that "showy offy" attitude attached to followers of Mr Blaine and that Angel bloke off TV.
I think Blaine et al have helped make magic more popular. Nowadays that usually means more commercial too which is unfortunate in a way. I think that's probably been part of the driving force of the "new age of magicians" who buy the odd dvd here and there so that they can perform a few feats of " ness" and call themselves magicians. The thing is, I can't feel bad about that group of people because it wasn't long ago that I was acting in exactly the same way.
That was my introduction to magic and I hope my involvement with the hobby can be long lived!
I'm sure alot of other people out there are the same and in time they'll realise that the novelty of individual tricks doesn't compare to a real understanding of magic principles. For those who don't get round to learning these principles, I think the novelty of the few tricks they own will soon run out anyway... either that or they'll keep buying the latest individual tricks and go broke.
It surely can't be a bad thing that everyone here seems to be in agreement though can it!?
This post was really just me saying I agree with what was said in the original post.

dat8962 wrote:I find all of the effects entertaining in their own way.

i agree with dat 100%. personally, i've been swaying away from the "magic" that you clasfiy (twisitng the aces) and going to more the gags such as the STS and other tricks. i've noticed this and i've been trying to go back to the "magic" instead of doing and learning more gag stuff. but then again, this is all entertainment. us performers are here to entertain others and fool people completly.

based on personal experiance (of one year...) people love the gags tricks more then the card stuff. people rather would come up to me and say "oOOH DO THE (sts/Bite out quarter/some dollar trick (greed, fraud, pen thru dollar) soforth) TRICK" rather then asking me to do a coin vanish or a card trick. personally, i dont like to perform these gag tricks and rathre perform card stuff, but hey. im at school entertaining highschool people, not in front of a audience performning to alot of people (that day will come )

Interesting thoughts Seige. One of the major parts of your comments being the importance of spending time with both technique and performance, rather than necessarily getting instant hits (which is what society wants). However to some degree it is about personal satisfaction. If an individual is happy with knocking off a few gimmicked effects with little skill or presentation and it makes them happy and his (or her) mates are impressed then is there harm. Even if they do it badly it may lead to someone else becoming interested. Also, as I've alluded to elsewhere I really don't see exposure as any sort of threat to the art for these very reasons. Again, some nerdy 16 year old screwing up a trick is unlikely to put anyone off watching, even if he either willingly or inadvertently tips the gaffe. If people watch someone doing an effect properly they will either think another method was used or be impressed that they didn't see the real one (most people DO realise that we are not REALLY magic, whatever our egos may think).

Again on that point, are WE any less impressed at a well performed and executed effect if we know the method?

Actually Seige's medical analogy is very apt. My training is medical (I am a veterinary surgeon). As a student I knew and learned, but initially didn't have the knowledge to perform. When I qualified I was able to perform adequately and competently but had to know my limits. It was only after a few years that I would consider myself truly competent and many years before I could claim to have real expertise. And I'm still learning.

Same with most jobs i guess, but there is a very real progression in both the magical and medical field. One difference, however, is that we are generally willing to freely dissipate knowledge amongst our peers (note:peers not "everyone").

I do not want to be a Brain Surgeon, Consultant or GP. However I would like to think that I could aspire to be a well studied member fo the St. John Ambulance... And what is wrong with that?

I love magic. I practise 15 minutes to an hour every day and the only people who see my tricks are my kids and occaisionslly my wife. I have no aspirations to perform to a wider audience - but should that exclude me from being allowed buy certain items on eBay or from being allowed into <input your local magic store here>?

1. Vernon's effect is true magic. Skilful, inventive, original
2. Could be used as magic, but STS is more of a 'gag' isn't it?
3. Sheer capitalism. Nothing magic about using a physically challenged woman in an effect is there?

Now maybe I have missed the point but surely all that is important is the effect and what sets the effect more than anything is context.

Without good visibility card magic can lose its apeal - I have read over and over that Vernon is the daddy but if you can't see the cards you can't appreciate the magic (cue P& T indian rope trick which proves the opposite ).

Having found the STS trick and seeing it has a "gimmick" I am an inclined to agree it seems more like a gag but if well timed as part of a rope magic piece I think it can add to rather than take away from a performance (hard though as I don't like the actual trick).

Not sure of the Chris Angel stuff as I haven't seen it... If he really does have 'half a woman' then wow what a cool gimmick! In all seriousness If I went to see a stage show you kind of expect to see the swords in the box or saw the lady in half.

Now my addiction only started a year ago and everytime I go to my magic store I spend £100+ but always ask for at least one 'cool self worker' as I don't want to have to practise every trick I 'learn'. I am most proud of the handful of sleights I am masterd but I get most fun from my gimmicks!

BTW
1. I have bought some expensive tricks that suck! I have paid £35 for a trick and seen it on eBay for £4.00. I think eBay is an excellent place to find out a tricks (or any item for that matter) worth.
2. Of all my tricks - my kids love 'Monkey Chips' the best
3. It is bloomin' hard trying to learn magic on your own

... Just thought of a new post!

I haven't read this whole topic because as soon as i read Siege's first post i had to reply to that because i absolutely agree with you!

I don't want to offend any Criss Angel fans here but for me, the stuff he does just isn't a life changer. The things he does are so extreme that a spectator knows that however impossible it seemed, its just a trick. You CANNOT really tear a women in half. People arn't stupid like that and know what he is doing isn't real. For me, that isn't what is going to change someones life. Its people like Derren Brown, Luke Jermay that are really taking magic into an era that is destined for success because people, when seeing someone read their mind, know that it can't be happening really but there is still a little itch inside them that says, 'Could this really be happening?'. Thats so much more powerful than just walking on water with a load of screaming girls at you.

Thats my view anyway...if its worth anything!

Does your magic shop have a sight address?

I have to say that I've really enjoyed reading everyones posts. You can feel the passion and love of magic. I have to firstly say that I'm a newcomer to magic and I hope no one gets offended that I'm posting i this thread.

All I have to say is that maybe not all is lost for all newcomers! I personnally have sat for about 4 nights a week for the last 3/4 months reading, studying and practising royal road. I have seen plenty of gimmicks and 'cool' effects for about 6 months now and have to say that they do not interest me.

I do not see these 'tricks' as magic but more as a quick fix and something to show your friends in the pub. I'd much rather watch Dai Vernon perform seemingly impossible MAGIC with 52 pieces of card and not some new modern gimmick. People have said about the popularity of David Blaine but for me Mr Vernon is becoming something of an icon.

All that I'm trying to say is that not all newcomers are buying stuff of Ellusionist and calling themselves magicians. There are some of us willing to do their time and learn the skills.

Basically I know I'm not a magician yet, but Rome wasn't built in a day!

Magic is an artform and as with any artform; music, film, dance etc. there are levels of 'artisticness' .
I feel that anyone in the particular field who takes their art seriously find it hard to see the more commercial side without a sense of slight snobbery.
I, for example, along with magic am also very passionate about music and utterly dispair at the commercial junk that is marketed heavily and then sells in it's millions where there are musicians out there with both artistic integrity with things to say.
With magic we see the same as we immerse ourselves in the collected knowledge of the more obscure (for the general public) magicians. You ask a regular joe who Dai Vernon, Houdin,Burger etc. is and they will stare at you like a dog being shown a card trick.
I think there is always a sense of an artform dying as everyday we see you tubers exposing magic and new gimmicky one off tricks being sold on the web but it is not dying. If anything it is doing very well thanks very much.
The fact that there is many an online magic shop, forums like this, local magic meetings, tv shows, pro magicians working should be very encouraging.
Finally going back to the music analogy, of all the people who play an instrument, how many write great songs or become fantastic players including people in signed established bands? Not many, but do they provide joy and entertainment to some of the people...yes. But there are also the rarer musicians out there that dedicate their lives to highly technicaland complex playing. It is these people who ultimately advance their artform forwards but it is the ones who provide the entertainment for the masses who keep it going in the present.
The same with magic I feel.

I get the strange feeling I've just writing a load of waffling nonsense but I've typed it now so like it or lump it.

What your saying Greedoniz makes perfect sense (well to me anyway so I don't know if that a complement or not). You make a very good example with music. Some musicians are factory made to get to the top of the charts but they are so mundane and like the last one. Some start of well then once they get a bit of notice they sell out and go for the limelight. The same could be said about magic.

You made another good statement about giving someone a guitar doesn't guarantee good music. The same as a trick and deck of cards doesn't create good magic.

Thats one thing I've learned above all- sure, learn the techniques and the tricks. But then take those traits and build on them. Develope my own style and patter.

PS I love your signature, Fear and Loathing is pure quality. "All the sudden I realised I was in a f***in reptile zoo".

greedoniz wrote:I get the strange feeling I've just writing a load of waffling nonsense but I've typed it now so like it or lump it.

No, it makes perfect sense.

Ellusionist are the pop magic of today.
Just like the boy bands, and fickle pop acts of today, they recycle old material and call it their own. The newcomers to magic/music are unaware of what's going on, so are taken in by all the glitz and glamour.
But at the end of the day the pop comes and goes in various guises, whereas the important content survives all generations.

Slydini said "to perform magic you must be magic!"
In other words you have to have confidence in yourself and what you are doing!

I know dozens of people who 'can do a trick' or know how a TT works but the idea, for me, of magic is being able to perform the effect as if it were an everday occurence. - with confidence, style (and a sense of humor)

Last night was a classic example for me - I was in a hotel bar at around 11ish and got chatting to the Barman, we mentioned magic and I got the ideal - let me show you something - opportunity! I showed him a quick trick which came accross VERY well and attracted another 6 people. Instantly everyone was a magician and wanted to show something, which was great!! An impromptu magic display of sorts but with people showing their best!! You could tell who had practised/performed what they showed before and those who had 'read it from the inside of a cracker' which highlighted again the need to ensure that you know what you are doing!! I was able to take my turn, without fear, at the bar and amused everyone using seemingly basic card magic with some other fun stuff thrown in (I had my 3rd degree burn in there too!)
I have bought ALOT of (expensive) magic - sometimes just to find out how things were done!! I then realised that so many things are a one trick pony and if you haven't got the stuff then you can't do it!! Who wants to fill their pockets with 7 gimmicked decks/ 6 m****t* and a dozen different coins when they go out so that they can show something 'on the off chance!'

Anyway my ramble seems to be headed nowhere in particular so I'll conclude it quickly.

If you can entertain people using these type of tricks then you are performing magic. Anyone can stick a card upside down in a pack (going through the motions) but a magician will make it seem as though that didn't happen and therefore, amaze you when it does!!

I would be quite confident in stating there is probably not one person on here that in their first few years of magic they went and bought some gimmicky tosh they weren't happy with or indeed some gimmicky item that worked a charm.
The problem is that we all tend to look at the past and reminisce about the good ol' days but in most case it is not a matter of better or worse just different.
It's funny that when looking at the past we tend to pick out the best moments yet applying that same thought to the present we pick out the worse.
You tube is a perfect example of present day thinking with many terrible magic demos on offer yet there are also a few absolute corkers too. The videos on there from the past are almost all excellent. Is this proof of better magic in the past? No it is mearly a fact that the only material kept from decades ago will be the creme de la creme shown on tv.

The same goes with books, gimmicks and ideas. All new material gets aired today and we see alot of rubbish but the old material that was rubbish was phased out and forgotten years ago making it seem better