talkmagic.co.uk

Just found this comment in the forum, talking about Classic Passes:

KardAdict wrote:Although is the pass a necissary sleight? I am not so sure.

Goodness gracious...

Well, if you remove the classic pass or it's variants from most Cardie's memory, they'd be pretty stuck.

OF COURSE it is a necessary sleight. How can you 'not be so sure' if you're not trying to learn it?

By learning the BASICS of sleights, moves and subtelties, you build an impromptu arsenal of ways of getting into and out of effects.

The more you learn and get involved in magic, the more you will appreciate why comments such as "LEARN THE BASICS", "READ THE CLASSIC TEXTS", "GET INVOLVED WITH THE OLD-SCHOOL STUFF" are so important.

Learning the basics, as boring as they may seem, and as tedious as they may seem—perhaps because they don't let you shove a coin thru a can within 3 minutes of reading—will make you a much wiser, more versatile, more valued and more articulate magician.

So many newer would-be-magicians are lazy. VERY lazy. I blame this on self-working, visual and easy to do magic. When it comes to REAL magic, such as anything involving skill, the new-age 'want it now' magician's tremble.

Here's some typical slots I place people in when I see new members looking for advice here...

1. If the first effect you bought was a self-working effect and you're wanting to get into magic more seriously. But you crave to be able to do more technical stuff, but havent' the drive to get any further—you just want it handed to you on a plate. However, the magic you now seek will probably end up being downloaded from filesharing forums, as your initial purchase left you cold as to how quickly the novelty wore off.

2. You are a genuine 'student of magic'. You crave knowledge and every ounce of advice you're given you follow up. You practice until you're good enough to show off, and you generally don't go out annoying your mates with your latest knowledge until you're happy that it works.
You come seeking wisdom, as you appreciate that wisdom comes from those who have trodden the same path you now tread, and they are only wiser because their journey has taken them further.

3. You've found TalkMagic whilst browsing a search engine for 'how to do criss angel magic' or somesuch, and you are trying to talk-the-talk and walk-the-walk in the hope of getting some knowledge for free. You have absolutely no interest in magic other than to lift the lid on exposing the secrets, or your curiousity is simply so you can impress your friends with your skills. You make no attempt whatsoever to show gratitude or manners for what is essentially a labour of love—being as this forum is generally contributed to volunarily.

4. You have a limited knowledge of magic, and you're not afraid to voice an opinion. You've studied forums, read posts, and think you know it all—or at least you act that way.
You shun advice, ignore rules, forget hospitality, disregard etiquette, and seem to be on a mission to cause trouble. Arrogance, bad attitude and expletive use of English seem to be your only virtues.

Sorry to go on and on and on... but reality check: What motivates people to post such rubbish?

I mean, we really do all have to start learning somewhere. It's true. And I didn't mean to pick on KardAddict... that was just the catalyst really.

However, it's interesting that the 'noobs' on forums in general—not just magic—are out for what appears to be a free ride.

Well said Siege,

I have to agree with your every word on this matter, for someone who believes that the "Pass" is not a sleight worth learning can not be seriously interested in becoming a true magician.

Without the pass in my arsenal there would be many tricks I would struggle with, when I do my version of the skull kings I use the pass for the main slieght. I also like to use it for clean-up of gaff cards after an efect has climaxed, so that I can freely show the top cards after a DL for example.

I think you might be flying off the handle a bit there. The chap has a copy of the Royal Road and that shows at least some desire to learn things the right way.

I can't say for sure exactly what his thinking is behind wondering whether the pass is 'necessary', but I don't think it's too daft a question. Although it's often used as a single card control it's not exactly necessary from that point of view.

If you actually need to secretly transpose two packets secretly then only the pass will do, this is true. But I've seen hours and hours of fabulous card magic presented by people like Michael Ammar and Daryl without a pass ever being used. So you could argue that it's not necessary to learn the pass to perform great card magic.

Personally I think the pass opens up possibilities that make it worth learning, and in my opinion if you can't perform a pass you have fairly important gap in your card skills. I don't think he asked such a daft question though. It's worth discussing.

Well said Seige I totaly agree.

A person doesn't necessarily need to have a usable pass but everyone should learn it I think just to have the knowledge (does that make sense?)

Last night I was doing a gig and I did 5 varients of the pass throughout the evening, as a control, as a clean up, to make the effect more powerfull (ie move the reversed card nearer the middle) and as a recovery - I love the pass and all those times in the spectator's eyes nothing happened to the deck. (BTW I know that's 4 I used it as a control twice)

To paraphrase Giobbi, there is not a more elegant way to control cards than this (The Pass)

This easy-come-easy-go phenomenon of fast and shallow results with "kiddie tricks" isn't going to go away anytime soon. It's the commercial side of magic. Most people never scratch the surface of what these things are capable of anyway. They're really consumers who "operate" the trick rather than create magic around it.

That being the case, they're always going to get excited, think they're doing magic, and will continue to fetch up on TM. So, what about setting up a section of the forum where the kiddies can discuss their toys without wandering into discussions they know nothing about and questioning the basics, or asking damned fool questions like "what's an ID?".

Even though I'm in an arsey mood today (see elsewhere) I think you're being unduly harsh. He says that the pass is 'one of the few' sleights he can't get his head around, and he's working from the Royal Road - not some Ellusionist/MakicMakers/Penguin rubbish.
Anyone who can learn the pass to a decent performable standard from the Royal Road (book) has my sincere respect and admiration. And anyone who quesions whether you really need to learn the whole gamut of card sleights to create magic in the mind of the spectator is probably on the right track, imho.

Charles...

If you read my post thoroughly, you will see that the 'pass' was a catalyst, and I even apologised to the guy.

My post goes beyond that...

Sorry, but I thought you were still talking about kardadict when you said

What motivates people to post such rubbish?

In answer to the question though; it's just kids, innit? What are you going to do? Yes, it's annoying but hopefully some of them will pick up a real genuine interest from the serious and sensible posters here and the rest won't stay too long (although there seems to be a never-ending stream of them).
Personally, I think trying to make the joining/posting criteria on fora more selective is a bad idea. If no-one is prepared to answer questions like 'what's an ID?' then beginners can't really be slated for not knowing the answer!

Hi charles... acrtually I was meaning the 'motive' comment aimed at the stereotypes I was depicting

:O

Sorry to KardAddict if it seemed aimed that way, I assure you all, as I said, the classic pass comment was merely a catalyst to opening a broader can of worms in my head.

Charles Calthrop wrote:In answer to the question though; it's just kids, innit? What are you going to do? Yes, it's annoying but hopefully some of them will pick up a real genuine interest from the serious and sensible posters here and the rest won't stay too long (although there seems to be a never-ending stream of them).
Personally, I think trying to make the joining/posting criteria on fora more selective is a bad idea. If no-one is prepared to answer questions like 'what's an ID?' then beginners can't really be slated for not knowing the answer!

I'm just a 'kid' and i feel that i do have a 'real genuine' interest and respect for magic, I’m studying from the more 'classical' texts which i feel are far superior than the cr*p which is being pumped out of penguin and ellusionst from example which anyone can learn in an hour or two. I actually sit down and read texts and learn the sleights and tricks, then i do practice over and over again until i feel i can do it to a performable standard. Also i do seek help in improvement, for example with my 'Classic Pass' - i practiced and practiced that until i thought i got it to a reasonable standard, then i posted it on TM to get more advice which i hoped may give me the opportunity in improving (which it has).

So in conclusion there are 'Kids' out there you do have a genuine respect and interest in magic (i being one of them) and i feel that more of you should realize this, because a lot of gross generalizations have been made about the youth in magic. (I do agree in where your coming from but i feel that you should recognize that some of us are 'different' and that we have a level of respect for magic most other 'teens' do not!!!)

Kind Regards

Citrus wrote:

Charles Calthrop wrote:In answer to the question though; it's just kids, innit? What are you going to do? Yes, it's annoying but hopefully some of them will pick up a real genuine interest from the serious and sensible posters here and the rest won't stay too long (although there seems to be a never-ending stream of them).
Personally, I think trying to make the joining/posting criteria on fora more selective is a bad idea. If no-one is prepared to answer questions like 'what's an ID?' then beginners can't really be slated for not knowing the answer!

I'm just a 'kid' and i feel that i do have a 'real genuine' interest and respect for magic, I’m studying from the more 'classical' texts which i feel are far superior than the cr*p which is being pumped out of penguin and ellusionst from example which anyone can learn in an hour or two. I actually sit down and read texts and learn the sleights and tricks, then i do practice over and over again until i feel i can do it to a performable standard. Also i do seek help in improvement, for example with my 'Classic Pass' - i practiced and practiced that until i thought i got it to a reasonable standard, then i posted it on TM to get more advice which i hoped may give me the opportunity in improving (which it has).

So in conclusion there are 'Kids' out there you do have a genuine respect and interest in magic (i being one of them) and i feel that more of you should realize this, because a lot of gross generalizations have been made about the youth in magic. (I do agree in where your coming from but i feel that you should recognize that some of us are 'different' and that we have a level of respect for magic most other 'teens' do!!!)

Kind Regards

Nicely put.
Respect.

Citrus wrote:I do agree in where your coming from but i feel that you should recognize that some of us are 'different'

Well, I do. You obviously have a 'real and genuine interest', and fair play to you. You won't find me bashing members because they're young. But we were discussing stereotypes as it happens and I think most of the posters who fit into the stereotypes mentioned above on this board are below the age of 20. Which isn't to say that everyone below the age of 20 conforms to them.

Charles Calthrop wrote:

Citrus wrote:I do agree in where your coming from but i feel that you should recognize that some of us are 'different'

Well, I do. You obviously have a 'real and genuine interest', and fair play to you. You won't find me bashing members because they're young. But we were discussing stereotypes as it happens and I think most of the posters who fit into the stereotypes mentioned above on this board are below the age of 20. Which isn't to say that everyone below the age of 20 conforms to them.

I wasn't aiming my post at you, becasue you were the only one who recogined that some of us are diffrent.

O n ps i miss typed - (I do agree in where your coming from but i feel that you should recognize that some of us are 'different' and that we have a level of respect for magic most other 'teens' do!!!)

it was meant to be DO NOT at the end.

Charles Calthrop wrote:If no-one is prepared to answer questions like 'what's an ID?' then beginners can't really be slated for not knowing the answer!

I think we should slate them, but not out of a need to feel superior...

I wrote the "what's an ID?" line after thinking back to last week when someone swore blind that they'd searched high and low for a Tax Disk Through Window effect and needed help in finding one. I typed the phrase straight into Google and there it was, or rather, there they were! Same with ID. Pretty much every shop sells them and describes the effect.

Sometimes I think they should teach finding things with search engines at school...


EDIT: There are some great kids here, though. MagicTom, Kati, etc. who really do "get it", and that's half the battle in being taken seriously in any community. I suppose my prejudice is against cheap laziness

Citrus wrote:I wasn't aiming my post at you...

Hey, I'm on a roll! I might get through an entire day without correctly interpreting a single post at this rate. This is a lesson to me that I should just not post at all when I'm in a bad mood.
I'll get me coat...