talkmagic.co.uk

Yeah, turning the normal cards like you do in a D/L is a nice idea. It also works on False Dealing. (Doing your normal deals like a false one.)

Also I don't like the D/Ls that much but I really love this one:
R. Paul Wilson's Ultra Natural Double

Hmn some very fair points being produced here.

Besides the DL there are plenty of other moves that basically do the same move, i.e, passes etc.

But as for double lifts, some look fishy to me, others don't. I think the best way to dispell the thought of someone thinking that something (in this case the double) is fishy, you have to make it flashy.

For example, if I was to do Lee Asher's Diving Board Double, it is an aerial double, but to the spectator its just a single card, and even with a single card doing such a feat to them is practiclly impossible.

Double undercuts has always looked obvious to me, I never do them, they still seem that tad bit suspicous.

GaMeR wrote:Also I don't like the D/Ls that much but I really love this one:
R. Paul Wilson's Ultra Natural Double

Admirable. But - leaving me to quietly weep that I will never have a thumb that can push two cards across without their separating massively and instantly - it still falls prey to one of that style of D/L's trademark irks. When you do a D/L, you're essentially just showing a card to another person - that's the motivation. Give a pack to a spec and ask them (it doesn't matter if you see or not) to show the top card to someone and they, as a human, will never turn the card over so it lies on top of the pack and display it there: they will simply pick the thing up. If you're showing a bank note, you might do so in a few, natural ways; one of those ways, if you wanted to avoid the specs' bells ringing deafeningly, would not be to display your wallet with it laid it across it, then flip it over so it was lying across it the other way up.

To stick with 'Things I can't do' - the Classic Force. The CF is the 'best' force (this is slightly contentious, I know from a previous thread, but I think it's fair to say that, generally, it is regarded as the 'best', in the sense of 'the most deceptive', force). If you think about it, this isn't because it's less obvious or more devious, or even more 'open and honest', than other forces: it's because it's what a normal, human spec would do if their only goal were to have someone pick a random card from the pack they were holding. That's surely the goal. 'How would I do this if I weren't doing anything?'

Aerial double lifts are the height of stupidity because you are doing a flourish at the wrong time. Precisely the moment you are doing a secret move. You are displaying skill at the worst possible time. Magic should be the art that hides art.

Again I urge Sexton to check out the Vernon DL. There really is none better. Once he masters this most natural way of turning over a card he will never be caught again and a whole new world of astounding effects will be given unto him.

One of the most startling effects to a layman is a card changing. There are many effects where this happens and the DL is quite frequently used here.

The get ready is quite simple and can be used for other methods too. No need to strain yourself pushing over two cards at once. Remove the top card and bring it to the right. Indicate it somehow and draw attention to it. I usually snap the card with my right fingers which are are holding the card. This little bit of misdirection will enable you to push the top card of the deck over and hold a break. Replace the card and away you go. I will not explain more because of nosey laymen looking in here.

A little caution though. After replacing the card it may be wise not to go into the move straight away. A smidgen of time misdirection may be wise. Just a few seconds. Scratch your ear or something then get on with the move.

The majority of laypeople can't handle a deck well anyways so turning over a DL and turning over the top card might seem the same to them anyways. With the right patter and misdirection, I see absolutely no problem at all with the DL.

People say it's an over-used move. So what if it is? If you can master it and do it well, what's wrong with it being over-used? If it's over used by someone who's not mastered it yet, then that person should carry on practicing! I've seen some pretty nice DLs and well... I sometimes can't actually tell the difference. When I saw the Diving Board Double for the first time on the System, I had no idea it was a double. (Of course, until I read the name of the sleight ) Scotty Jay also does some very nice DLs... speaking of which, I really want to learn how he does his pinky counts! Anyone know of any sources? Oh, and Eaun Bingham has great DLs!

Unless your performing for magicians, DLs are excellent for laymen.

Steve

Double lifts should not be overused because of the old adage that you should not repeat a trick lest the audience might catch you. Admittedly this is not quite the same thing but the general principle applies. The more you do something the more likely you are to get caught.

I use the move myself a little too much but then I am an unmitigated genius so naturally in my case it is excusable. However for lesser mortals I would say go easy with it.

yeh. i re-state-handle your singles like you handle a d.l. i have learnt to do this over experience. and it works.

i would agree that the d.l is used a bit to much. however, in some card tricks you cannot do anything else except a d.l. many great card tricks rely on it. e.g. the classic 2 card monte.--ok I'm sure you could do it wit the use of a d.l but it wouldn't have as much impact.

in conclusion. i think the d.l is snazzy

I wanted to test the theory of handing the pack to people, mostly people I knew. The most interesting case was my wife. She turned the card over, I think, the most elementary way possible. End over end, long ways. I don't think I have ever seen anyone do this before. Then I thought about it. Me and my wife play euchre quite a bit and in this game you must flip over the top card to designate trump. Well, to spare all the details, this is exactly how she flips the card to do that, so it is what is natural to her.

Mind you, she is no expert card handler, but is privey to my card antics. Still, once I asked her to flip the top card over she did it this way. I asked my brother after I was fooling around with some cards, I asked him if he saw me do anything weird. I did a few single turn overs and dl's different ways and in between I threw in the end over end. Guess what he said, the end over end turn over(not my dl's hehe).

Here is my point. Spectators expect you to be an expert at cards, regardless if they are or not, or you are or not. What ever you do may be fishy to them, but the basic familiar moves are what makes them wonder. Now if that points to your dl then so be it. My guess is by this study, the springboard dl wouldn't raise a flag, if done properly. It seems to me, like the flashy comment before, that if you do somthing that should be simple and make it complex looking then you should be in the clear. I don't believe that just because it looks "fishy" to scrap it. That doesn't make sense to me. People expect to be amazed or fooled, if they can't prove it or are shooting in the dark then you have done your job. There is nothing wrong with out of the ordinary, because everything we do(to them) is not ordinary. A magician spectator is an entirely different ball game.

Not a single one of my friends or family does a swing cut. That makes this out of the ordinary, but man it makes cutting fun. After I learned the swing cut, I forgot how I used to cut before and was mad at myself for not learning it sooner. Although from what you are saying it will look fishy to a spectator because they don't do it that way. Even though nothing is going on, but what if somthing truly fishy was goin on. Would we then have to trash the swing cut. I am not trying to sound the way this sounds, but there is no other way, sorry.

Now of course I said that I did this research on people I know, that doesn't mean that they know my secrets, but that fact that they know me and the familiarness of my handling could botch the information I gathered. I suggest you all try it as well, it was actually pretty fun. Oh and if you say turn over the top card they will turn it over and put it back on the deck. It is in the wording.

Well those are my thoughts on the matter. If you weren't able to tell, I am a dl supporter. I have been caught, but I'll bet that most everyone on here has, and the dl probably isn't the only thing we have all been called out on. We have all performed for that impossible to fool person, not a heckler, just some1 that no matter what you do they are on to you. Lie or not you are busted. I have performed for many people in the past 8 years and the ratio of fooled to non is a really good number. I'll stick to my guns and do what I do. I won't try to discourage or influance a person that has their mind made up, I just wanted to talk about what I found out.

Thanks for reading!

Ouch.

It should be noted that sometimes a spectator will not know what has happened but will still know that SOMETHING has happened and that is not a good thing.

I keep saying that flourishes should be used intelligently at the right time and in the right place but nobody seems to be taking any notice.

Incidentally I don't necessarily think it is of earth shattering importance that a double lifted card should be turned over exactly as it would be in real life. Sometimes magicians worry overmuch about things that laymen don't give a darn about. Having said that the Vernon lift is as natural as it gets.

mark lewis wrote:Incidentally I don't necessarily think it is of earth shattering importance that a double lifted card should be turned over exactly as it would be in real life. Sometimes magicians worry overmuch about things that laymen don't give a darn about.

I agree with this completely. For the longest time before I learnt the push-off DL or whatever it's called (eh, go check my ACR video for an example of it...) I used to be terrible for forgetting that I'd just done a double in a different way but no one ever picked up on it.

Not even those evil ones who watch and wait for you to slip up

My d/l is totally subjective in method. I've learned over the years that the d/l needs to look natural in certain situations, and in other situations it matters not.

Therefore, I developed—quite through evolution—my own d/l variants which look exactly like deals, peel-offs and cuts. I've never really considered it as important that I did this, but I guess I just learned to 'fill the gaps' left by the d/ls which books had taught me.

Thing is, the regular d/ls are fine if you need a fast turn without anyone burning. But my own d/ls are far more complex, and have a 'no flash' success rate of about 45/50.

However, I've performed to even magicians who've not noticed my d/ls, and I'd be quite happy to share them with the right people.

I consider the d/l to be as important in magic as any other sleight. In my own magic, even more so. For the beginner at cards, the d/l—when learned properly—can suddenly open a world of miracle transpos etc. And similarly, the pro magician will always utilise a d/l to it's full potential.

If there was ONE piece of advice I would give, it is BE GENTLE. I see a lot of double lifts which look like people are handling a piece of lead, not a card. Always practice the un-slight, in this case, how it looks to take a regular card from the deck. Your d/l should match this as close as possible.

That's how I came up with my own methods, and I think that books and DVDs which teach the d/l should be used as a start point for you to make the d/l a move of your own which fits your own mannerisms and handlings.

Its a move which is well worth the effort invested in it, in my opinion.

i also like the plain old (though my memory is rubbish for sleight names) - Braue d/l....(like you're about to take it in a biddle grip)...

i have a nice lightness to it, i found a good practice is to repeatedly pluck the top card normally, then go in for the d/l, then back again...over and over again til there's no difference in the speed of picking it up...

plus, you can always dress it up cant you - spin the d/l across from hand to hand as you talk for example...richard bellars has a fantastic sleight that combines his version of a topshot with a d/l...thats very nice indeed...