talkmagic.co.uk

"All content on this site becomes available under GNU Free Documentation License. If you wish to retain copyrights on your material, please don't post it."

And if someone else posts it without my knowledge or permission? You get to see lots of juicy secrets you'd otherwise have to pay for then declare it open bloody source!

jesusjoe wrote:Lawrence,

The law, Canadian (where I am) and International clearly states that Ideas/actions cannot be protected, but the description of these ideas/actions can be, and is from the minute they are created.

You can not claim rights on how to throw a football, but that book you wrote on it is all yours.

The same goes for magic.


As long as explanations are made up of 100% original content, this includes videos and text descriptions alike, then these explanations are not only legal, but protected under copyright law.

Intellectual property is broken down into several categories, copyright, which I have just discussed, Trademark, Patents, and Trade Secrets.

Trademark would only apply to names of effect, for example, Ellusionist has trademark on King Rising. This doesn't mean I can't use the name, it simply means I can not sell a similar product using that name. I am allowed to say the name freely, as I am describing an idea with a name that someone else has decided it should be called.

Patents are for inventions. In the magic world this would apply to gimmicks, props, stage illusions etc. The problem with getting something patented is you need to submit explanations of what the item does/how it works. Even if this is done a Patent protects that item from being produced and sold by someone other than the creator. I would still be free to tell anyone how to make it, and make said item for my own use.

Trade Secrets. This one is the closest thing that the magic community can do. I encourage putting this into full action!

A Trade secret is used to protect an idea that a company makes money from. To classify something as a Trade secret you need to a) not sell it to the public or b) If you do sell it, have the buyer agree to a confidentiality clause upon purchase.

Having a little disclaimer when buying from stores is all it would take.

Of course then you would have to prove that the person breaking the agreement actually purchased the effect from you under this agreement. This one wouldn't stop many people who discuss methods. If any of you are on exposure forums at all you may have noticed a lot of the explanations are not the exact method used for the marketed trick, but an educated guess about the method that will yield desired results.


Like Lawrence said, the law is very clear on this. And I have done nothing wrong.

Cheers.

Clearly you miss the point! This is NOT a legal issue but an issue of magicians code of conduct. You responce suggest you clearly do not think that the magicians code of conduct is worth much.

Well, it is a bit like doping. There is nothing in the law that prevent you from an athlete taking certain "legal" drugs. Nevertheless taking the drugs would lead to lifetime ban.

Individuals who systematically breach magicians code of conduct should be black listed and named and shamed.

Well this is going to get nasty.

I agree with Tomo and Soren on this more Soren, all though no legal ramafacations braking the magicians "code" it is one of the defining things of magic

"how do you do that? You cant tell me can you? magicians code and all that"

Sad thing is that lay people seem to respect it more , then magicians them selfs well in some cases any way.

And as for screening "name three magicians the public havent heard of" Tomo, Seige and my self am I in?

You are clearly read up on the laws and what not, and I will freely admit I am no lawyer but no matter how silly it sounds or childish we do have a code. As I stated above it defines magicians , I dont hear of the plumbers code......

I've been avoiding this thread as I don't really want to get involved in any arguements but I just thought I'd add my point of view.

I've not seen what's inside that forum so can't really comment on the site as such. However I do think that just handing out secrets is wrong. I'm not going to make a big thing about it but I know I'd be very upset if I found someone giving out lyrics and music that I'd spent time writing with out even having the courtesy to ask my permission. I'm not really in a position at the moment where anyone would want to hand out my magic tricks but the principles are the same.

As I said I've not seen inside those forums to comment about Joe's site directly, this is just a general point.

Firstly the magicians code anywhere that I have seen it appear states that it is against the magicians code to explain the workings of effects to non magicians

Secondly, would so many of you be rabidly anti-exposure that you would decline to tell a magician friend you know in person how an effect is done? Or have you never exchanged effects with a magician friend?

I have in the past bought DVD's and books knowing how the effects in them are done, why? Because I want to see their presentation, I want to hear their patter, I want to see an effect presented professionally.

I am not directly condoning websites like JesusJoe's but neither am I condemning them. He does his best to ensure that non magicians do not gain access to his site.

Let bygones be bygones, so long as Joe doesn't break OUR code of conduct at TM, then surely we should welcome them?

I know for a FACT that several TM members are guilty of illegal file sharing and the likes, but they don't do it on TM, and therefore they are welcome.
Ergo, they're not chastised by other members.

So, any chance we can drop the debate and get on with some magic discussions? We're hardly making this a welcoming thread are we?

The great debate over exposure and the likes is now so drawn out and long in the tooth that we should call it a 'historic battle' I think.

And like most good historic battles, by default, it's better off in the past.

Now, Joe has kindly removed the link from his signature—amicably and pleasantly—so could we please show a little respect now?

Joe has been patient and lurked for a couple of years as a member, and deserves at least the chance to be accepted.

oeb wrote:Secondly, would so many of you be rabidly anti-exposure that you would decline to tell a magician friend you know in person how an effect is done? Or have you never exchanged effects with a magician friend?

I've helped develop new ideas with various members of TM over PM or in the Member's Only area, and one or two have gone on to become marketed effects. There's a big difference between brainstorming raw ideas for new effects, and giving away someone else's. The only ones you can morally give away are those you originated yourself. That's tthe reason I wholeheartedly approve of attempts to poison places like YouTube with fake exposure vids. Maybe I'm just an old Punk who listened to too much Crass in my youth, but I strongly feel that if there's no law to protect you from harm, you're well within your right to pursue legal direct protest to protect yourself.

Hi Joe.

When reviewing prospective members answers to the screening questions, do you verify their responses?

For example, when they name other magic forums to which they belong, do you request their usernames and assess their contribution on those forums? (of course, it would also be necessary for the applicant to prove they actually own those accounts - a simple email requesting a response sent to the accounts registered email address would easily confirm this).

Failing this type of diligence I can see why your process, despite its good intentions, could be seen by the magic community as inadeuquate at best and "lip service" at worst despite the disclosures apparent compliance with the law - It's not really "a law thing".

Welcome and all the best.

(Edit: apologies Seige - I started typing this before your last post, can remove if you like).

Tomo wrote:Maybe I'm just an old Punk who listened to too much Crass in my youth, but I strongly feel that if there's no law to protect you from harm, you're well within your right to pursue legal direct protest to protect yourself.

Do they owe us a living..course they do,course they do, Owe us a living...course they f...... do

Wukfit wrote:Do they owe us a living..course they do,course they do, Owe us a living...course they f...... do

Time to play "Banned From The Roxy" really loud, methinks...

(Or was that The Exploited. It's too long ago...)

Alright, Time to answer this mass of posts one by one.

And if someone else posts it without my knowledge or permission? You get to see lots of juicy secrets you'd otherwise have to pay for then declare it open bloody source!

All content posted on the site is in the users own words. We do not allow copyright infringement, my site is completely legal, you need not fear that anything YOU write will end up there unless YOU want it there.

Firstly the magicians code anywhere that I have seen it appear states that it is against the magicians code to explain the workings of effects to non magicians

Hey, someone gets it! I am not trying to mass expose (ala masked magician/Fox) My site is to help magicians add more to their acts and improve their repertoires.

Now, Joe has kindly removed the link from his signature—amicably and pleasantly

I did do this, Usually I argue it but it has gotten old, after all this ain't my site I follow the rules. I will not be posting any exposure here at all either, don't worry.

When reviewing prospective members answers to the screening questions, do you verify their responses?

For example, when they name other magic forums to which they belong, do you request their usernames and assess their contribution on those forums? (of course, it would also be necessary for the applicant to prove they actually own those accounts - a simple email requesting a response sent to the accounts registered email address would easily confirm this).

Failing this type of diligence I can see why your process, despite its good intentions, could be seen by the magic community as inadeuquate at best and "lip service" at worst despite the disclosures apparent compliance with the law - It's not really "a law thing".

To answer the first question, yes. I do verify responses. I am a member in various locations so if you are an avid user on a forum, chances are I recognize the name.

I also get each members IP address and verify their location, this is just a trust thing, if they are going to lie about location, how much can I believe from them? Some people use proxies, and I do ask them about that if something doesn't add up.

Like I have said many times, the validation process is mainly in place as a deterrent. If your not a member you can't see anything. If you need to sign up its a waste of time, I would say about 80% of floaters who come across the site don't bother signing up. Another 10% give up after being told they need to prove themselves. I block approx. 90% of all layman that come, that is better than most full out exposure sites do, you can't argue that.

Sure, some people will get through, this isn't a perfect science but I am working on improving many aspects.

And as for screening "name three magicians the public havent heard of" Tomo, Seige and my self am I in?

Again, some people will give response like this and I will question them. Answer I look for are names that come up more often as you get into magic. Paul Harris, Lennard Green, Daniel Garcia, Dai Vernon etc. The Layman will not have heard of these, but every practicing magician has. If I get answers as the above "Tomo, Seige, myself" I will clarify the question to receive more well known magicians.


I have taken the time to answer all of your questions/attacks in the most mature way I could. Like Seige said, this will never end there will always be this line separating magicians.. I wish it didn't have to be this way but it will never be resolved.

All I ask is that you give me a chance to be part of this board without making judgments before knowing who I am, and what I do.


I am a Magician. We all are, thats why we are here and on other forums.

I think that should be enough to not have to be weighed down with questions of my intentions.

I thank you for reading my replies, I do not intend to discuss this further, I will forget it if you can.

Thanks.

Well I may not agree with it. But I take my sponges out the bagless purse to you sir. Yo have answred all the questions in a very polite mannor and to that I commend you. By the way if anyone joins up on the name a magician person and they mention the King of Sponge balls you should grant them acsess no questions asked. For they are a very learned person indeed.

lol Will do!

Thanks for the kind words.

Welcome Joe!

hey jesus joe. welcome buddy.

andy( not nyman)