talkmagic.co.uk

Interstingly, if it wasn't for a few reveals on a few websites, I would have not realised how accessible magic was to me. It was at that point I bought RRTCM and joined here.

Since then I've spent little money on a few things and money I didn't need to on others.

I've no conclusion to draw, but it's an interesting anecdote.

I don't fear reveals. If people want to know how something is done, then they will find out. What will they do with this knowledge? Will they travel around waiting for magicians to do things and expost the secrets, I think not.

Marvell wrote:Interstingly, if it wasn't for a few reveals on a few websites, I would have not realised how accessible magic was to me. It was at that point I bought RRTCM and joined here.=

I rest my case. As I said, there's some good comes out of it.

Marvell, you're exactly the sort of case that I was trying to describe

Besides which, if an effect is presented well, the spectator will stil be fooled even if they know how it's done. Keep the routine entertaining, and you keep them off guard - they won't know what to look for until it's too late. Or at least that's the plan.

seige wrote:I rest my case. As I said, there's some good comes out of it.

That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me

pcwells wrote:Besides which, if an effect is presented well, the spectator will stil be fooled even if they know how it's done. Keep the routine entertaining, and you keep them off guard - they won't know what to look for until it's too late. Or at least that's the plan.

Penn and Teller Cups and Balls, for instance.

Marvell wrote:

seige wrote:I rest my case. As I said, there's some good comes out of it.

That's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me

Awww. Anyhoot ethics people ethics. What is ethical at the end of the day some where some where some one is getting screwed over.

We try to protect our secrets some one will try to give them out thats the problem with secrets no one can keep them

All the I dissagree with some exposure and indiffirent to others, it all a matter of can we sit here moaning about the secrets and that the young uns of today have no ethics or do we try to educate them in the ethics of magic....

I suppose it depends on the ratio of good that comes from this type of exposure, i.e. those inspired to take up magic as a hobby, to the bad i.e those simply seeking to annoy the next performing magician they see ot show-off to their mates with their amazing knowledge (despite having no inclination to try it for themselves).

Many rats died when the Titanic sank. Sinking passenger-laden cruiships, however, isn't seen as a good way of culling vermin.

A metaphore on a Friday afternoon, not a good sign.

To be honest thoe to sum this thread up, everyone on this website has possibly looked up something for free whether it be magic or not, i totally agree with one of siege points strongly where he says some of these people who are looking for free magic might go on and be a top magician, i think thats a valid point and it could improve our job by getting us more recognition if there are people who are serious about it and if they never see a free magic trick advertized they might not have ventured into this career at the end of the day theres a very fine line between whats right and whats wrong and every body in this forum will have a different opinion and to me it seems like one of them threads which could ultimately end up getting locked if more members got involved.

The most annoying thing about web exposure is that you spend time, money and effort learning something and people can just type into google the effect and they can find out how you did.
Magic should only be available to those genuinely want to learn it. It thrives on secrets.

No they can't. Unless they know it's called tripumph, how can they find the effect you performed.

google: trick with cards upside down right way up

There was a comparison previously in this thread to learning a musical instrument and it's relative [free] ease of doing so with the abundant free music instruction available on the internet. True, the average kid nowadays has all of this stuff at his easy disposal, whereas I had to learn to play the guitar the hard way - and the only sheet music that was available had to be purchased. But in the end, if that kid becomes a musician and carries on in his interest of music, then great! I WISH I was 13 again now and had all of these electronic tabs and sheet music available to me now. I personally consider it a great learning tool. There was a motion about a year ago to ban all sheet music transcriptions to be available for free on the internet. Luckily this didn't actually happen, but it was close. Unlike magic, music IS NOT a closely guarded secret. If everyone out there wants to be able to play a musical peice that I wrote, I would feel HONOURED!!! (Of course, not to claim it was their own).
Anyways, my point is that not everything HAS to be learned the hard way. The unique nature of magic makes the secrecy important.

I also think that among the vast majority of "magicians" out there are really hobbyists (like me). They do not make a living doing magic. As such, I think it's important to realize that most people can't afford to spend that much money on things that are not bringing them revenue. I agree, however, that the odd DVD at $29.99 costs considerably less than a pair of designer jeans, which the very same people have multiple pairs of. Furthermore, these people aren't getting paid for work they have not researched and/or payed dues for. They're performing for friends and family. If they manage to respect the art and not give away secrets to others, then what harm have they caused the art as a whole? Now, if paid professionals do the same, then THAT is unethical because they are profiting (literally - in cash) from something they didn't 1) create, or 2) pay for. I just want to point out there's a difference. I'm not saying one is RIGHT and the other is WRONG. I'm just saying there are degrees of wrong!

Pirated Magic is all DVD and downloads and I've yet to see anything worth copying, let alone paying for.

As one that's had his stuff stolen and placed into these File Share networks (as most call them) I can assure you that there is no low to which these jerks will not go to get material and put it out. Part of the reason is that "they" think it should all be FREE. there are several reasons for this rather strange course of thinking, everything from "we are all magicians and should be free and open with what we know." to some kind of bogus Buddhist perspective on things that suggests that information cannot be "owned"...

Recently my friend Millard Longman was confronted by a noted writer in the Mentalist world about publishing Millard's new Acidus Globus move... something that's been commercially available for less than a year, that is legally Millard's and yet this pompous ass has tried to "justify" his right to include this move based on the idea (delusion) that "there is only so much you can do with a piece of paper and I would have figured it out eventually..."

I had a similar discussion to this when Ken Whitaker and I were working on Shadow Vision and I broke down and shared an Andre Kole method that would allow the illusion to work better than the original ideas. Ken's so-called "partner" insisting that they would have come up with the same thing eventually... well, they didn't and just like this lard ass trying to steal from Millard, he didn't!

Theft is rampant and comes in many forms. Closer to the theme of this thread we have the young punk that just placed nearly every billet move from Alan Zingg's Master Course on UTube... though I believe the footage has been removed, the fact that some young idiot would do that is very disturbing.

These people simply don't care and their actions are, sad to say, reflective of how society is failing; how we are loosing our sense of respect of others let alone a craft we supposedly enjoy and have a passion over.

Some great things have been said in this thread... hope my rambling don't confuse you all... so many things running through my mind and I can't seem to hold a thought...

Acidus Globus move... something that's been commercially available for less than a year

Anyone who sells paper-tearing 'moves' is an enterprising person indeed, anyone who buys them, well

I wish I had the low opinion of people who buy magic that I have now back when I first discovered what this guy has given a name to - I'd be tens of dollars rich and complaining about kids on YouTube

There are people with a passion for magic, who enjoy discussing and sharing ideas and then there are those with an eye for a quick buck. Sadly, internet forums are full of the latter and their devoted fans. In my own field we mock those who 'never had an idea they didn't publish' - and what a load of rubbish has been published, magic is no different.

I applaud those craftsmen who can turn out fine quality magic props and tools. I don't, for instance, begrudge John Riggs a single penny for his impression boards. But I've got no sympathy for those 'magicians' peddling their simple ideas on the mulititude of DVDs and downloadable videos currently available.

Magicians who do DVDs and downloads have kids who do DVDs and downloads.