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Hey guy, I have another question on a couple of coin concealments from New modern coin magic. I don't quite understand the thumb palm and back thumb palm. I have trouble with the thumb palm especially. I don't know how to get the coin into that position?? How do you bend your fingers inward, and put the coin into the crotch of your hand without bringing your thumb down?? I ask because the book sais to keep your thumb up for the thumb palm and down for the back thumb palm? Thanks everyone

-Jordan

not sur how much can be said on open forum so i suspect this post to be edited when the mods wake up.

with the coin displayed at the figertips, first second and thumb and placed into the hand the thumb stays were it is and the fingers slide over the coin coin goes into thumb palm.

with the coin displayed on second and ring fingers the thumb satys were it is and you make a fist coin goes into back palm.

in thumb palm the thumb is in line with the first finger ie up and with the back palm the thumbis at the base of the second and ring were they meet ie down.

same for tenkie position.

thease descriptions are for performers view if that helps.

Ok thanks, I didn't know how else to post the question, so I am not intentionally trying to expose stuff, thanks!

To be fair, it is perhaps a little explicit but not exactly in the sort of plain English lay people would immediately understand so, unless anyone objects, we'll leave the original post as it is for now !

Here's the big question:

How bad do you want the thumb palm?

I wanted it pretty bad, so I started slowly...So very, very slowly. Keeping my thumb in hard position and not allowing it to move, I forced myself to get that coin into position. After, about, an hour, my hand hurt terribly. But, I was getting there even though I dropped the coin frequently.

Another evening of an hour's work, so very slowly, left my hand in pain yet again. A bit better, as far as getting the coin into position with no thumb movement - not dropping the coin so much...

Another evening of an hour's work, slowly, left my hand in not so much pain.

Another evening of an hour's work, speeding up a bit, didn't bother my hand too much...I gave it a second hour's work, but the pain returned.

Another evening of 2 hour's work, getting up to speed and less discomfort in the hand. No movement in the thumb, the coin didn't drop.

Another evening of 2 hour's work, almost got it quickly and perfectly (but too fast saw thumb movement and the occasional coin drop - slowed back down), not much pain at all and I was getting good muscle retention. The coin was going into position naturally without dropping it at all.

Now, I can quickly get into thumb palm every time, no thumb movement, no coin drop.

Do you watch television? Then that is the perfect time to do this (at that time in my life, I actually had a television - I don't own one anymore, considering the television to be a phenominal waste of time). Hold your thumb in hard position, don't allow it to move at all and teach your fingers to put that coin into position, doing it very, very slowly. You can teach it to your fingers if you are comitted to doing this, but it will take comitment on your part.

The precise handling cannot be taught to you by someone else. You must learn this on your own, because my fingers are not the same length and shape that yours are...You must teach your fingers to do this. And, you can teach them. Just don't give up, even when your hand starts to hurt from forcing your fingers to do something unnatural (because it really, honestly is an unnatural motion for your fingers, especially if you don't move your thumb). When your hand really starts to hurt, stop for the day and give you hand a 24 hour rest. Continue on the next day, going slowly, ever so slowly, forcing your thumb to remain motionless and teaching your fingers to firmly put that coin into position.

You can do it, but you've got to be comitted to it.

The back thumb palm, however, cannot be done without thumb movement (from finger tips).

Mike.

I remember I had a similar problem with pretty much every type of concealment, especially getting into Down's palm. In the end it just comes, like Mike says the TV is your best bet for learning a lot of coin stuff because you can sit there repeating the actions over and over without getting bored until you have muscle memory.

On that subject actually, I was told recently it takes 35 hours to develop muscle memory, I'm not sure how accurate that is but it certainly seems true in my experience.

I would agree with Bronz on that point...After 35 hours, you should be able to do the move (any move, really) frontwards, backwards, in your sleep and with no thought to the matter.

Although, I'd say after 15 hours, you're well on your way to "owning" any given move (with some notable exceptions, like the pass et al).

Mike.

I'm new to coin magic and am interested in this thread. I've just been learning the basics from David Roth's 'Expert Coin Magic... volume 1' (DVD).

He doesn't teach the thumb palm in anything like the manner described here, makes no point of keeping the thumb still etc.

Can some of you more experienced people shed any light on this? Is it just horses for courses/personal preferences? eg. he seems to teach the palms more in the context of palming in the course of performing some action with your hand.

Or is there some weakness or unconventionality of Roth's teaching here that I should know about?

Thanks guys, that helped a bunch! I know it takes a long time to develope the muscle memory, so I'll just keep practicing!! Talk soon

-Jordan

misterblack, I have just about every thing released by Mr. Roth, and you can take it from me there is absolutely no weakness in his teachings. The man is a genius with coins. Following Mr. Roths methods will have you thumb palming in no time.

both methods are equaly valid as each method should be done under cover of another action.

use wichever method suits you best.

magicdiscoman wrote:both methods are equaly valid as each method should be done under cover of another action.

use wichever method suits you best.

That pretty much sums it up!

Look at it like this:

Bobo's book was written when these sleights were (mainly) in their infancy. It was later down the line that guys like Roth took them and changed the handling to suit their own needs. An evolution, as it were.

Now, you can take the sleights out of Bobo and make them to suit your own needs, or you can study guys like Roth and use the changes that they've made.

Or, you can even take the sleights that you learn from Roth and change them to suit your own needs and the evolution continues.

But, no matter what, don't think that because Bobo says that's the way it has to be done, or that Roth says that that's the way it has to be done, that you really HAVE to do it that way. The way that YOU have to do it is the way that it works the best for you.

As long as all roads lead to Rome, then it is all good.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:don't think that because Bobo says that's the way it has to be done, or that Roth says that that's the way it has to be done, that you really HAVE to do it that way. The way that YOU have to do it is the way that it works the best for you.

That sentiment should be tattooed inside every Magician's eyelids!