talkmagic.co.uk

AndyRegs wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

This is the paradox Derren Brown used in one of his routines a while back.

And Beeno, I bet you must be one of those nightmare spectators to perform magic to.

Probably, if I didn't practice the art myself. But seriously, be prepared for tw*ts like me if you're performing this sort of confusement.

I dont intend on performing a paradox, but getting some sort of inspiration or presentation out of them.
For example, even if the paradox of the ten rooms makes no sense to you, if as a layman you were confronted with the paul curry effect, you may be suprised to have the paradox confirmed in front of your eyes.
And hey, if its good enough for Mr.Brown to use, then its good enough for me.

And by the way, there are different types of paradox's, some true, some based on untruths, and some that fit into neither.

Here is the Grandfather paradox. This could have a presentational angle of use...

Suppose a man traveled back in time and killed his biological grandfather before the latter met the traveller's grandmother. As a result, one of the traveller's parents (and by extension, the traveller himself) would never have been conceived. This would imply that he could not have travelled back in time after all, which in turn implies the grandfather would still be alive, and the traveller would have been conceived, allowing him to travel back in time and kill his grandfather. Thus each possibility seems to imply its own negation, a type of logical paradox.

What can I say, I'm a paradox purist.

beeno wrote:Well all I see is, you put 9 people in 8 rooms, then a 10th person (apparently taken from room 1, even though people 1 & 2 are in there) into room 9.
Not a paradox at all. The whole premise is based on an untruth.

Beeno - are you winding us up? or deliberately missing the point? Really why are you making such a big deal out of this?

A paradox is an apparently true statement or group of statements that leads to a contradiction or a situation which defies intuition

It think that somes up pretty well all the paradoxes stated on this thread.
If you want to discuss what is a paradox and what isn't please start another thread. Thanks.

Sorry, I'm neither winding you up, or missing the point. I'm just wasting some time in the Dove's Head. I didn't realise I was making a big deal of it.

I'll stop now.

Here's a paradox:

In reality, you can never move anywhere-
To get to from one place to another, you must get halfway there.
To get halfway to the place, you must get halfway to halfway.
You must get half-way to that place.. and so on...
So, you would infinatly have to go halfway, making it impossible to get anywhere...

If you have 20 dollars and want to buy two DVDs worth 25$. You decide to buy the DVD worth $15 dollars and get 5$ change. Can you get in a time machine with that 5 dollars, give it to yourself and pay for both DVDs?

O.K. This wasn’t really the direction I intended the thread to go. I’m not bothered whether paradox is the right word technically. The word is used to describe such things though, and I think that there may be some use in looking at them…blimey…magicians…

Having said that, not being an expert on paradox’s or anything, I have come across different types of them…

(1) A veridical paradox produces a result that appears absurd but is demonstrated to be true nevertheless.
(2) A falsidical paradox establishes a result that not only appears false but actually is false; there is a fallacy in the supposed demonstration.
(3) A paradox which is in neither class may be an antinomy, which reaches a self-contradictory result by properly applying accepted ways of reasoning.

So perhaps they are paradox’s, and fit in to category (2). Though to be honest I don’t care, and it is irrelevant to my original post. At least a couple of people get the point.

And here ya are:



Oops...No, wait...That's a paradise, not a paradox...I'll keep looking...

AndyRegs wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem

eek, something i've be ranting to people about for ages now. it worries me that this even confuses mathematicians!
people don't seem to understand, just because you have a choice of 2 things (while it is a 50:50 choice in it's own little way) does not mean that each box has an equal probability of being the "winning" (or whatever) box.

Ah, the good ol' Monty Hall problem, one of my favourites .

I'll have to admit, I couldn't believe it when I read the answer - it took me a few more reads of the solution to understand what was going on. However, when you know (and understand) the answer, it's fairly straightforward (ish ).

However, when you know (and understand) the answer, it's fairly straightforward (ish ).

I think the beauty of it is that even when you know the answer, it still feels wrong, which is why countless mathmaticians got it so wrong. It counter intuitive.

I have read about the game show paradox before - in derren brown 'tricks of the mind' book - its a great paradox, and my girlfriend did not understand it, even when I explained the 100 doors idea instead of 3 - just goes to show how people can exploit others using these paradox ideas (eg on the gameshow to make people not choose the correct prize)

I suppose its kind of like magic - except we are not ripping people off, we are entertaining them and they enjoy it (hopefully )

The other thing which no-one has yet mentioned is the idea of time paradox's, like in the film series of 'terminator' - however, these ideas are strange - much like the idea of giving yourself the $5 to buy both DVD's...the main one I always think of is (as kind of mentioned in Terminator) - would it be possible for you to go back in time and kill your own Grandparent when they were young...if you kill them, then you are never born (so...can you have ever gone back to kill him :S) OR would you just not be able to kill him, because if he had been killed, then you would not be born to be able to go and kill him :S ARGH !!! It boggles the mind...

I think the solution to that is to accept that we can't travel through time.

I prefer irony to paradox's. Easier on my simple mind.

sleightlycrazy wrote:I think the solution to that is to accept that we can't travel through time.

Im sorry but i have to disagree with that statement. We can travel through time.

Forwards....constantly!

That's right! I forgot about that...

We can't travel through time by our choice [will]*, there.

[edit] *whimsically! ARGHH stop splitting my hairs.