talkmagic.co.uk

I've been reading everyone's views but I still really don't understand why any one really needs a gun. Ok Michael I get your point that you like guns but some people like drugs, some people like to go racing around the town in their cars but it sill doesn't mean that it should be legal.

Guns are illegal here and have been for a very long time so I guess it's a kind of cultural difference between American and Brits in the way that we think about them. But to me the whole issue just sounds so out dated and macho. 'um me big man, me have big gun, grunt grunt'.

Guns hurt people! Guns are built with one use, and that's to kill!

I just so don't understand it, even our police here don't carry guns. If us and most of the rest of the civilised world can survive without them than why can't the US.

The problem is you don't see the point - thus no one can ever make you.

It's not about being "big" and "macho" - those are just stereotypes and prejudices YOU have come up with to explain why people do something you don't agree with.

My apologies if this sounds rude, but comments like yours don't exactly come off as good-natured, either. Citizens owning guns hardly makes us less civilized than you, and the implication that it does is incredibly insulting. I've seen hundreds and hundreds of pictures of young British teenagers with giant pink mohawks and skin-tight checkerboard pattern pants - but it doesn't make me come to a forum and make sweeping (and false) generalizations about your homeland being a bastion of mindless idiots listening to even more mindless music, prattling on about how terrible my country is, while saying "If we do it this way (and it's right), why can't you?"

I've been here for a while now, and I have silently endured and shrugged off the numerous barbs tossed at my country. For the average "blowhard egotistical American" I have been more than courteous to every member of this forum, even those like Lord Freddie, regardless of the incredibly naive and offensive comments that have been made. However, in this kind of situation, I simply refuse to sit by and allow it any longer.

Lady of Mystery - try to accept the possibility that other people don't hold your opinions and line of thinking. It doesn't make us bad, or "wannabe tough guys", or uncivilized psychopaths running through the streets shooting anything that moves. It just means we disagree.

Also bear in mind, I say this as a person who doesn't own a single gun. In fact, for the most part - I don't see a reason for many people to have a gun. But then again, I'm not those people. I don't speak for them, nor should I.

It should also be noted that I am not personally offended by your comments, but I just feel they shouldn't go uncontested.

Calm down Demitri, I never said I was right and you were wrong. I actually said that perhaps there's a cultural difference and that we think differently. I'm not putting the US down, I'm not saying that we're better than you. We're just having a debate and I'm putting forward my points.

There's a huge cultural difference between the Americans and the Brits. Guns is just a small part of that. Take hunting for example, you guys see nothing wrong with going out into the woods to shoot a deer or two. Try that over here and you'll be strung up. We've just got different ideas and values I think.

You know regardless of the debate over guns laws in the UK v's USA the actual accident in the post could have just as easily been in the UK. You can still own a .22 cal gun at home here in England, most farmers have them along with shotguns for vermin control. You just need a licence.

Stupid isn't an nationality it's a race

As most UK members will know, private ownership of guns here was almost completely outlawed a few years ago following an incident, not unlike those referred to in the US, where a guy who had a proper licence to own and fire guns, went berserk and shot innocent people, mainly young kids. The knee jerk reaction of banning them actually did nothing to stop gun crime because, as has been mentioned earlier, guns used in crime are rarely legal. We now have regular news reports of drive-by shootings or shootings in or outside pubs and clubs and they are usually gang, drug or other crime related. A friend of mine used to shoot pistols competitively as a hobby and some of his fellow gun club members were on the verge of joining the International teams for the Olympics. As a result of the ban he had to hand his guns over, the promised compensation still hasn't been paid and anyone wanting to shoot competitively for the UK now has to travel abroad to be able to fire guns at targets. Contrast that with the continued shoots of pheasants and other wild life which is still quite legal and it's no wonder we get a confused idea. Personally I wouldn't want to own a gun of any kind as I feel there's too much responsibility attached to ownership.

Putting your opinions forward is fine with me, Lady - but comments like these:

But to me the whole issue just sounds so out dated and macho. 'um me big man, me have big gun, grunt grunt'


certainly don't come off as anything BUT condescending.

ok, I'm sorry for that comment. I've just got quite strong views on guns and weapons in general. I certainly don't want ot get into an arguement over it.

Demitri Said

The problem is you don't see the point - thus no one can ever make you.

If you held a gun to our heads we may agree wishing we had a gun!!! I think the UK most people will disagree with Gun Laws in the USA , is that because we don not understand it? Or feel if we agree it would feel to us we condone it? In the UK guns are for sport or animal control other than that we have no need for them.

'

um me big man, me have big gun, grunt grunt'.

Big man!! Oh yes most certainly the case in the UK If you have a gun you have the power, if you threaten anyone with that gun you also get the right to be shot by the police.

Demitri I don’t feel anyone is insulting you it’s the system in the USA around guns it’s just hard for the People of the UK to understand why “Jo Blogs” would want a gun.

Take care all

Whilst I certainly don't want to end up in a full blown war over guns here, I would like to point out to Demitri (for whom I have a great deal of respect as both a person and a magician) that I am very familiar with the case of Columbine and I know the guns they used were illegally acquired.
As a matter of fact that also goes without saying, because, as I mentioned - I believe you must be 18 in order to buy a gun and neither Dylan nor Eric were 18.

This however, still does not adress the point of the Virginia Tech incident (which is perhaps a better example of this point) that a known violent psychiatric patient was allowed a gun.

If people want to own guns, that's ok with me - I just wish that people of known unsound mind weren't sold guns over the counter.

Banning guns would do nothing - and I respect your constitutional right to own a gun.
Doesn't mean that verybdy who wants one should be issued with one.

A car is a very powerful and potentially dangerous tool as Michael pointed out - yet people with various psychiatric (and neurological) illnesses can not be issued a licence to drive a car here.
Similarly, I would hope that if guns were legalised again - there would be restrictions on who could own one.

I agree with Mr. Deck - you don't need guns in the UK. I say this because in the UK, if the victim of a crime turns the tables and beats to a pulp the man or men who would have robbed or hurt him, then the victim will be brought up on charges because you folks aren't allowed to defend yourselves. How many times have you read in a paper in the UK where the victim is made the criminal for simply defending himself?

Big man!! Oh yes most certainly the case in the UK If you have a gun you have the power, if you threaten anyone with that gun you also get the right to be shot by the police.

And you earn that same right here in the states. There is a belief in countries other than the US that we walk around, toting guns. Well, we don't. Shoot outs between the bad guys and the cops are very, very rare. It does happen, but not the way that it is portrayed in the movies (and Hollywood has brainwashed a great many people into believing that shoot outs are a regular thing in the US).

You want shoot outs? Try Buenos Aires in the drug district. There they have drug lords actually shooting at helicopters trying to bring them down. Folks, that doesn't happen in the United States (even if you choose to believe it, that simply doesn't make it true - even if you did see it in a Hollywood movie).

Ugh, me big man, me own guns. Well, I guess that makes my grandmother, my mother, several of my aunts and my ex-wife big men too. My ex-wife is a right good hand with her .357 magnum. I pity anyone who would break into her house because she can make a can dance at 50 feet with her snub nosed revolver.

I was about 8 years old when my mother shot a rat in our kitchen. Dad's .45 was sitting on the table, but he wasn't home. I was eating lunch and mom was at the table with me. A rat came walking into the house, mom grabbed the gun and "BOOM." Took it out in one. To be expected from a gun smith's daughter, I suppose.

Mom had 2 sisters. My grandmother gave each of her daughters a gun when they moved out of her house. She had this idea in her head that she didn't want her daughters raped and, oddly, she assumed that having a gun would be a quicker way to stop such a thing than waiting for the police to get to the house (assuming that they could get to a phone in time).

I own my grandmother's old Derringer. It's an antique, of course.

Ever hear of Ron Bauer? You'll find several references to him on this thread:

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic24431.php

He has a grand-daughter who not only owns guns but goes hunting (both small game and big game). She goes bow hunting and gun hunting and field dresses her own game (including field dressing deer, which is a terribly messy job). She is a petite and pretty young woman - should I now consider her to be a big man?

In fact, some of the best competitive shooters here in the United States are women. Should they be classified as big men, now?

I had the pleasure of watching a cops show wherein someone was in this elderly woman's back yard, breaking into her garage. She came out of her back door and vollied several shots from (what appeared to be) an old, .38 revolver. The police arrived, checked her garage and unloaded her gun for her. They then replaced the revolver on her night stand (setting the cartridges next to the gun) and told her that she wasn't allowed to shoot out of her back door. They then left.

I'll guarantee you one thing - nobody else is going to try breaking into this woman's garage. And, I can't help but wonder...Is that elderly woman a big man?

She lives in a very poor neighborhood. Would you be the one to tell this woman that she doesn't have the right to have that fire arm in her home to protect herself? Would you be the one to tell her that she should call the police after she's been beaten up? Or that she should take the chance of being killed in her own home by druggies trying to steal from her?

I've recently read about a new law they are trying to enact where in the UK if you mug someone because you need drug money, that they are going to go much easier on you. Seems to me, in the UK, it is better to be the criminal than the victim - the criminals have rights, the victims don't. Here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7288913.stm

Anyway, this is a debate that just goes on and on and on. People who don't own guns don't want anyone to be allowed to own them and there are simply no arguments that will suffice.

A couple of last things:

EckoZero, I wasn't trying to be offensive to you. I guess that I misinterpreted your comments and you have my apology for that.

Lommie wrote:I've been reading everyone's views but I still really don't understand why any one really needs a gun. Ok Michael I get your point that you like guns but some people like drugs, some people like to go racing around the town in their cars but it sill doesn't mean that it should be legal.

Nobody needs a deck of cards - should they be allowed to own them? Nobody needs a dog, or a cat, or fish - should they be allowed to own them? The only things that anyone really needs is shelter, food and clothing - should everything else be illegal because others say that it should?

Racing around town? Then take their car away from them. But, the responsible use of a car should not cause the confiscation of the thing. Same with guns.

And, in all honesty, why do you care? If I have not hurt you, if I have not threatened you, if I simply live my life and leave everyone else alone, why in God's name does anyone believe that they have the right to take away my fire arm? What could possibly give anyone that right?

Mike.

For the record, Seung-Hui Cho was a Korean national. Any fire arms that he obtained were gotten illegally. Only US citizens are allowed to purchase fire arms in the US.

Further, if you are a resident of one state, you cannot go to another state and purchase a fire arm (well, you can, but there are specific laws that make it terribly difficult to do so).

For whatever reason, Cho was able to get his hands on a fire arm - but it was NOT legal.

Mike.

Seems to me, in the UK, it is better to be the criminal than the victim - the criminals have rights, the victims don't.

That's certainly the way a lot of people here see things.

Big man!! Oh yes most certainly the case in the UK If you have a gun you have the power

Oh yes most certainly the case in the UK

The big man quote is for UK people, I did not say USA people, Have a gun in the UK you are the big man have a gun in the USA it seems the norm, however we do not have to agree to it nor condone it.

[quote]Householder/other victim not prosecuted
Robbery at a newsagent's. One of the two robbers died after being stabbed by the newsagent. The CPS did not prosecute the newsagent but prosecuted the surviving robber who was jailed for six years (Greater Manchester);

A householder returned home to find a burglar in his home. There was a struggle during which the burglar hit his head on the driveway and later died. No prosecution of householder who was clearly acting in self-defence (Derbyshire);

Armed robbers threatened a pub landlord and barmaid with extreme violence. The barmaid escaped, fetched her employer's shotgun and shot at least one of the intruders. Barmaid not prosecuted (Hertfordshire);

Two burglars entered a house armed with a knife and threatened a woman. Her husband overcame one of the burglars and stabbed him. The burglar died. There was no prosecution of the householder but the remaining burglar was convicted (Lincolnshire);


A middle aged female took a baseball bat off a burglar and hit him over the head, fracturing his skull. The burglar made a complaint but the CPS refused to prosecute (Lancashire).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7266555.stm[/url]

We are not always Victims the laws are moving on for us. Just a few examples above.

Take care all

"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".

Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa





Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (2002)

Homicide

USA - 3.98
England/Wales - 0.15
Scotland - 0.06

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

My father-in-law owns a couple of shotguns and goes hunting every week. If I recall, I think the police came round to the house when he got the guns to ensure he had aqeduate and safe means of storage; I think he keeps them in a locked box in the attic. I went hunting with him once and he's a very responsible guy indeed. Naturally, he has a licence.