talkmagic.co.uk

I just am not really interested in spending the money.

I'm afraid this scentence and magic are not mutualy inclusive.

but the best free advice i can give you is comunication, talk to as many people as you can, first try listning then try leading conversations.
you need to be able to join a conversation and then steer it in the direction you need it to go in, once you have this skill your magic will increase tenfold so will your social skills, its not called working the room for nothing.

curently you come across as someone who wants it now and dosn't want to pay for it or pay there dues so to speak, I'm sure this is not the impression you intend to give, thats were the comunication practice comes in.

HenryHoudini wrote:This whole post in general was really helpful, but that one part reminded me of a lecture I went to recently.
The lecture was done by Levent, and he was talking about Benson's teacher (I forget who it was.) He was saying that when this man revealed something like a card turning face up, he wouldn't fan out the cards face down to show the face up card, he'd fan them face up, take the face down card, and then wait a second or two. After that, he'd slowly turn the card around to reveal that it was the selected card. This seems to be a fantastic idea.

Good, I'm glad.

Burger talks about almost that very thing in "Magical Presentations". He describes two endings to a routine, where he shows the face of the final revelation at different times (the card is turned at the bold type): "...and your card, the jack of hearts" or "...and your card, the jack... of hearts".

There are so many reasons why the last one is superior, just try it for yourself. That's the sort of thing you want to make a conscious effort to build into your routine, because otherwise you'll fluff it in the heat of things.

Incidentally Benson's teacher was Nate Leipzig. I do know everything you know.

mark lewis wrote:Incidentally Benson's teacher was Nate Leipzig. I do know everything you know.

Right! Thanks for that. Who the second part was directed to I'm not sure though.

Everyone. I am sure that everybody knows it anyway but just in case.

If I gave you a diamond, is it worthless?

I'm not talking about a tangible, I'm talking about an intangible. As the saying goes, "Advice is cheap." In general terms, that is a truism. Further, let's not start splitting hairs, all that does is alienate the very people that you are asking to help you.

Well, that a wonderful piece of logicalidiocy.

And you honestly expect me to help you? You'd definitely be better served being one of Lewis's acolytes.

The fact of the matter is, what is given for free is rarely considered valuable. Mom and dad give junior his first car, which he proceeds to take out and beat the hell out of - he has no respect for this item because it was given for free and therefore doesn't fully understand the real value of that item. That is a fact of life.

Another fact is that if you study your histories, con men always blow their money as quickly as they get it. It was easily taken from a sucker and since no real work was required on the part of the con man to get that money, they have little respect for that money. A con man can have $100,000.00 of ill gotten gains today, yet die destitute a week later.

I don't have any problem with books, I just am not really interested in spending the money.

Why are you not interested in spending the money? If it is a simple matter of the fact that you are poor, that's one thing. If you can afford it but just don't want to put your resources in that direction, then that tells me the value that you give to the material that is available. Again, you don't have any real appreciation of value and you've admitted as much with that statement.

Still, you can get good information at no cost to you. Ever hear of an institution called a public library? Of course, sitting at your computer screen is much easier (and no doubt the only amount of investment that you wish to make - again showing your lack of appreciation of the value behind what you are asking). But, if you're serious, then get off your rear and head down to the library.

Look for books on theater and acting. Talk to the librarian and tell him specifically what you're after - he may just have some good advice on which books will help you. Look in the magic section and see what they have to offer.

In fact, I've read A LOT in both books and online (though there's not much in the latter resource, I've found).

There is a massive amount in the latter resource. In fact, it's right here, on this web site. I've seen, over the years, some exceptional threads dedicated to this subject alone on these pages. What you have to do, though, is invest you time and effort into mining for that gold. It will cost you time and work, which will give it an intrinsic value in the very least. Of course, it's much easier just to post and get the answers in one thread rather than spend the time finding it manually (again, giving the advice an intrinsic value of $0.00).

Further, you just have to know where to look. The Dragonskull website is packed with information on presentation (of course, much of it will require that you read between the lines). That is only one example of the exceptional advice that can be found on the subject at hand.

Presently, though, you can go back and read Farlsborough's post about a dozen times because he's given you exceptional information. You can also click on the link that sleightlycrazy has given you and start reading articles that have been published (paying particular attention to Mr. Marucci's column, which gives you a trick and presentation - again, read between the lines). You can further take Mr. Lewis's advice on board, because even in its simplicity, it makes a great deal of sense.

IF you have any good online reading material, please give me a heads up.

Join The Learned Pig Project. If you are unsure where or what that is, then click here.

Best wishes.

Mike.

Make lists.

One is everything you have done in your life. all your failures and accomplishments and everything in between.

Second list is all the effects that are near and dear to your heart. (if this list is longer then your first list, stop now and get some life experience)

Use the effects in the second list to tell the story of your first list. This does not need to be a literal translation.

List number 3 all the effects that you know of that would help illustrate list 1 and that you would like to do. Learn these and put them in list 2.

Obviously illustrating your life through magic is very hard to do this is where your creativity comes through.

Go out and perform join Toast Masters or any such organization that will teach you public speaking. Yeah I know you are cheap and want things handed to you but you are only going to get out what you put in.

Go and read short stories see how they are constructed. Or use the short stories as patter. I know one person who went out and bought a book on native american mythology and used the stories as patter. Too bad he was a louse technician but his story telling was incredible.

Finally, when you ask for help don't insult the people who are trying to help you.

I am certainly not "alienated" by the young man asking for advice. In fact I commend him for asking about presentation. It is the most important aspect of magic and very few people his age are in the slightest bit interested in it. The fact that he has the insight to know instinctively that this aspect of performance will make him a good magician is something to be commended and not condemned.

I would go so far as to say that 90% of magicians know absolutely nothing about the subject. They may well pay lip service to it and even pontificate about it. However they don't practice what they preach. I have seen many "performers" preach and even write books about presentation but they cannot walk the talk.

There are many aspects to good presentation but for all practical purposes the most important factor for our young student is the PATTER. Good patter is the key.

This is where 75% of all would be wizards fall down. Even experienced magicians are often run of the mill perfomers simply because of poor or badly delivered patter. I believe this is an important subject, in some ways more important than the trick itself. You see, patter is the vehicle for your showmanship; good patter well delivered can lift a performance into the heights of entertainment-bad patter can make a trick resemble the sinking of the Titanic. In other words, a disaster.

Now where do you acquire this silver tongue, you may ask? Never fear-Mark Lewis is here. I will tell our student and anyone else who wants to know EXACTLY how to do it. It may take me a post or two to do it but do it I will.

Seek and ye shall find. Wait and it shall be given unto ye.

"Win the Crowd" by Steve Cohen. But then again, it's a book that costs "$$$" so this advice will fall on deaf ears.

Trying to read books on Amazon? Tut tut. Get a job to earn the "$$$" to pay for the wisdom. If you're not willing to do that then you don't deserve to know the wisdom written by greater men than you and I.

The fact that he has the insight to know instinctively that this aspect of performance will make him a good magician is something to be commended and not condemned.

I don't condemn his desire to learn, only the road that he is taking. I don't begrudge anyone making money, but I certainly don't think stealing to get it is commendable (which is pure analogy - I'm not suggesting that his request is akin to stealing).

Mike.

Michael, sorry for that comment. It's just that I spend much time volunteering online helping people out w/ info, and I have sort of begun to expect the same. No prob, though.

In response to other things you've said in reference to my interest in magic:

Yeah I know you are cheap and want things handed to you but you are only going to get out what you put in.

Really! And you said I shouldn't insult people... I have tried to join Toastmasters, but it's the same time as my youth group at church and I believe I'm not old enough yet (I think it's 16 & up). I am part of mock trial, if that count for public speaking. I have a pretty good natural talent talking to a group of people, though it needs some ironing out through practice (which I haven't gotten much of yet since I'm just beginning).

Your advice about pulling in my own story is interesting, though I think I'll be doing more with the third list than with the second.

I've already spent over a hundred dollars on various things (Dan and Dave's Trilogy, for example, which is great). You guys have made a lot of suggestions, but each costs a reasonable amount of money; how do I know which to get? I'm just not a huge fan of throwing my money everywhere. I'd much rather get some quick advice from people on this forum to start me off and maybe supplement it later with a book. I was primarily looking for links to topics that have already been on the forums. (I had already spent ten or fifteen minutes looking around to no avail. I though it'd be easier for people who knew where the topics were to just quickly post a link.)

And no, I'm not in a hurry. I'm willing to put a good amount of time in effort into this. (And I have already with the Trilogy and doing research and working on random tricks I've picked up or invented.)

Thanks everyone for the tips. I'm putting them in my notebook for future reference, especially that long post from farlsborough. I checked out the visions web site and read a few articles. They didn't seem to be incredibly relevant, though interesting. The formula (if you've read that one) was pretty cool and made sense.

I will tell our student and anyone else who wants to know EXACTLY how to do it. It may take me a post or two to do it but do it I will.

Thanks!

Ok Mike, I just clicked that link, and I'm kind of ticked off. I spent thirty minutes to an hour on Google before coming here.

I will say the magical two words again.. I Know I've posted them on this thread previously, but if you're the slightest bit concerned about presentation, then, in my opinion, you have to go for "strong magic", simply because you are guaranteed to learn something from it. It gives you the tools to analyze every aspect of your effect- not just the patter- but every move you make. It doesn't just say, make your magic more entertaining- it tells you how- put a convincer in your ACR by "accidentally" flashing the card as it is being placed in the center. When you do twisting the aces, for the final ace, place the packet in a card case (as a condition) do the twist and the reaction will improve greatly (I speak from experience with regard to those two effects). Ortiz goes into great detail as to why certain "conditions" make laypeople reacts and not magicians and vice-versa- and that's only the first chapter!
I would go on all day about the merits of the book, but I might as well type the whole book out here for you if I were to do that. Go onto the world of magic website and bag it in case it goes out of print again (I think it might be A BIT pricey, but it's worth it!). There are many people on here more qualified than I to tell you about presentational bits and pieces, as well as reccomend books, and you should definitely listen to them, but I really think you can't go wrong with Darwin Ortiz' excellent book.

BlueCuzco wrote:Ok Mike, I just clicked that link, and I'm kind of ticked off. I spent thirty minutes to an hour on Google before coming here.

I only suggested that link for finding The Learned Pig Project, not for anything else.

If you want lots of reading material, the TLPP is the place to go. Google it.

On a side note, I'm even looking forward to Lewis's offering. Every now and again, it's honestly worth eating that mountain of manure.

Mike.

Oh, I see. So you gave me a link calling me dumb for not using Google even though I had?

I looked at reviews for everyone's suggestions for books and am considering Win the Crowd; I'm thinking about going into business to it'd help with that as well (and it's relatively cheap!).