talkmagic.co.uk

Oh. She wants something from me now. She had better apologise for her previous impertinence in that case.

For now I shall simply say that the tarot IS real. However perhaps in a different way than she expects.

magic wand is needed here.....................for knowledge and objectivity

spudgun wrote:magic wand is needed here.....................for knowledge and objectivity

magicwand is very tired after spending an evening (until 2am!) doing tarot card readings, then driving an hour and a half to get back home. It's quarter to four. What on earth am I doing on TM? I must be delirious.

Somebody let Queenie into the secret sections for goodness sakes.

queen of clubs wrote:I'm a cynical, bitter and twisted skeptic. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in elves or fairies. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't believe in mind-reading.

I recently chatted with a very dear friend of mine who does amateur Tarot readings for her friends, and I pretty much told her it was all utter charlatanism, bunk, tosh, Barnum statements, lucky guesses, cold reading, inside knowledge, psychology, sociology, misdirection and piddle.

This offended her. She told me to her it was real. She's not misleading people.

So I'm asking for replies from the members of this forum who REALLY KNOW what they're talking about. I'm referring to the Tomos and the magicwands and the Lewises.

I am convinced there is nothing to Tarot that is other worldly, or mystic, or spooky - it's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's "real".

Discuss.

So let me get this right... you want to hear back from people that you know will agree with you, tell you that you are in the right for being a dickweed and such. You want to hear from the "yes men" of the James Randi Fanatic's Society and not from people who actually do Readings and know the difference between charlatanism, belief/faith and doing magic tricks that only "look like psychic stuff... for fun".

People like you are precisely why so many of the real pros within Mentalism avoid magicians and magician forums; you're so full of your hate, distrust and bitterness that you don't see your own fear and desperation when it comes to consignment.

You can be as "convinced" about things as you want but I can assure you, as can any real Reader that's worth his or her grain, that far more comes about in a legit Reading than all the psycho-babble and canned spiel the "intellects" and cynics of society want to accept.... and yes, I'm calling you a "cynic" in that what you describe in this post is not what a Skeptic is... skeptic's will actually leave the door open a bit, many of them actually on a quest, much like Houdini was, looking for the legit bits of manifestation (which many have found... only for St. James & Co. to negate the valid credentials of such folks, attempt to paint them as fools, quack science, et al... the only thing that's not quackery in their book (your book) is what agrees and supports an atheistic agenda).

I sir, am a Skeptic... I'm also very involved in psychic type research and will agree, there's a lot of bogus stuff out there. I cannot, in right mind, say that it is all pure malarkey however in that I know better from first hand experience as well as observation.

If you want "real" answers stop asking the Choir of your particular brand of theism to give them to you... go outside the cult of personal choice and be brave enough to possibly have your eyes (and mind) opened a bit.

Reverend Browning. Please be a trifle more merciful to the young lady. She is innocent of the ways of we spiritual people and must not be upbraided for her cynicism and distrust. Besides she comes from Yorkshire and needs all the sympathy and kindness she can get as a result of this unfortunate fact.

Mind you I am highly amused that she asked for advice from me, magic wand and that dreadful Tomo personage. The reason I am amused is that she didn't ask YOU for your advice.

It looks like she is going to get it anyway. And may God have mercy on her soul.

Craig Browning wrote:[go outside the cult of personal choice and be brave enough to possibly have your eyes (and mind) opened a bit.

I thought that this was exactly what Queen of clubs was trying to do by inviting discussion (albeit from a skeptical starting point of view). I think your reply was a bit harsh! Can you suggest some sources for reading on this subject?

Mr Lewis, the only people in this world needing pity are those who are NOT from Yorkshire

So let me get this right... you want to hear back from people that you know will agree with you, tell you that you are in the right for being a dickweed and such.

1. No abuse of any kind will be tolerated.

Bang out of order if you ask me Craig. She was actually asking for comments from people who are knowledgable in the subject, and people (like magicwand) who actually make a living from it. A fair and honest request.
If you ask me though, claiming that a pile of mass produced pieces of cardboard with pictures on (probably made by by an orphan in a chinese sweatshop) can help you read the future is either wishful thinking or delusion.

cragglecat wrote:Can you suggest some sources for reading on this subject?

The best book on the Tarot that I've ever read is "The Book of Tarot" by Fred Gettings (1973). It's desperately hard to find, but your library might be able to get hold of a copy. It describes the meanings of the Tarot cards in terms of the underlying symbolism of the original Marseilles deck, and explains the sequence of the Major Arcana as a symbolic story of spiritual growth.

As several people here already know, I am a serious student of the occult and have spent a great deal of time studying the Tarot in particular. Its primary purpose to occultists is as a spiritual tool, a meditation aid, and a "book" that can be studied again and again. Its use as a fortune-telling device is a minor sideline or spin-off from its purpose as a symbolic language or framework.

I'm about to do a Tarot reading for Queenie, which I will report back on.

There are many approaches to Tarot, one of which is predicting the future. There are also hundreds of Tarot decks that have been created that draw on the history of esoteric philosophy and evoke different responses and technques from different people.

For an alternative use of Tarot that sees the cards more as a vehicle or 'lens' through which one analyses current concerns, see the work by Enrqiue Enriquez. In many ways the Tarot provide metaphors for typical concerns in people's lives and can be a useful means for clarifying the types of questions with which people are grappling.

We had the pleasure of hosting Enrique at our last Tabula Mentis meeting where he gave a wonderful two-hour lecture on Tarot, and in particular the Jean Noblet Tarot de Marseilles. His Notes on the Taror De Marseilles can be found at http://www.mevproshop.com. He has a system that does not assign fixed meanings to cards. It is not my place to say more, but I do recommend his ebook, which is not particularly expensive.

To see how vast this subject area is, check out the following:

http://www.tarotforum.net

Have fun!

Todd

Craig Browning wrote:People like you are precisely why so many of the real pros within Mentalism avoid magicians and magician forums; you're so full of your hate, distrust and bitterness that you don't see your own fear and desperation when it comes to consignment.

pot calling the kettle black...

take your own advice craig...

Robbie wrote:...The best book on the Tarot that I've ever read is "The Book of Tarot" by Fred Gettings (1973). It's desperately hard to find, but your library might be able to get hold of a copy. It describes the meanings of the Tarot cards in terms of the underlying symbolism of the original Marseilles deck, and explains the sequence of the Major Arcana as a symbolic story of spiritual growth...

For anyone who is interested, there's a hardback copy for sale on eBay at a very reasonable £7-odd including postage from the US of A...

The Book of Tarot by Fred Gettings

Here you are, Queenie. I did a Tarot reading for you in relation to the question you posed to kick off this discussion. To prove that I actually did the reading and didn't just pull names of cards off the top of my head, here's a photo. (Apologies for the background, but the bed is the only place around here with enough room to lay out the cards.)



My question was not really phrased precisely enough, but was along the lines of: what made you ask your original question, why was this discussion started, and what are you looking for?

Here's my interpretation, as it comes to me:

1 - You in relation to the question/problem. Card: The Star.
I have to admit that I am at a loss with this card in this position. The essential meaning of the Star is one of creation, inspiration, and creativity. I could go into the esoteric sermon here, but it doesn't seem to apply.
The best interpretation I can give to start off with is that "you in relation to your question" are the creator or initiator of this thread. Let's go on and see what else arises.

2 - The problem or obstacle itself. Card: Temperance.
You are having difficulty seeing or putting things in their due proportion. The problem is to do with grasping the higher, more spiritual (in whatever sense you care to interpret the word) substance and bringing it into play in the material world around you. This is the inner essence of creation.

3 - Your conscious hopes, fears, or desires in this regard. Card: The Sun.
A desire or hope for companionship. You hope that things will go well, that friends will agree with you, and that there will be a general happy feeling about the discussion. This is yet another card that mentions creation and creativity.

4 - Your subconscious hopes, fears, or desires. Card: The Moon.
Very odd that the conscious and subconscious cards are the Sun and Moon, which are themselves symbols of the conscious and subconscious minds.
You fear being isolated in this discussion, left out in the cold. You may also fear being led into ideas which are out of your comfort zone -- losing your identity as you have built it up to this point in your life.
This card talks about "anti-creation", the sucking dry of creative abilities.

5 - You overall, your self-image. Card: The Chariot.
A good card, showing a person who is well balanced overall. Your body (chariot) is sound, your emotions (horses) lively but under control, and your mind (driver) in charge. The Chariot is symbolic of humanity perfected on the physical plane; the only way to improve further is by turning to higher things.
A question always raised by this card is: where are you going? A splendid chariot is only useful if it is heading to a destination. There is also an implicit warning about making sure you continue to keep your body fit and your emotions controlled.

6 - Other people and the world around you. Card: The Emperor.
This is another card indicating a strong rooting in the physical world; the Emperor has no dealing with spiritual matters. We have authority and the desire or need to seek authority, and this is directed toward the cards symbolising yourself. By asking your question, you are appealing to the authority of others in the group, seeking their guidance.

7 - You, your goals. Card: The Lovers.
You are poised to make a decision. The choice you make will, in the end, be the right one. In hindsight it will seem inevitable.

8 - The world in general. Card: The Lady Pope.
You are being offered knowledge, if you will take it -- not from other people or from experience, but from passive sources such as books. The time is right to absorb information in the abstract, to sit and read quietly, not to take practical action yet about what you learn. There is great power hidden inside this apparent passivity.

9 - Hopes, fears, warnings, promises. Card: The Devil.
This is a warning and an obstacle. Your path to progress is blocked by a lack of flexibility and too much attachment to material things. You are too rigid. Open your mind and heart, become more loving and accepting. Look beyond the physical (whether this is money, sex, food, housing, etc.).

10 - Outcome. Card: The Juggler.
This card, also called the Magician, may have special meaning in this forum!
It shows a person just on the verge of spiritual awareness, engrossed with physical things and playing to an audience, but starting to wonder whether there is something more. It doesn't quite mean a new beginning, but rather a stage of being ready to begin.

----------

So, in summary, you appealed to this forum in hopes of finding people -- especially people you can think of as authority figures -- who would agree with you (Sun, Emperor). You were mostly afraid that people would disagree with you or scorn you (Moon).

You think of yourself as a well-balanced, hard-nosed, practical sort of person (Chariot, Emperor). You are very strongly focused on practical, physical, material things and a social life among other people (Chariot, Emperor, Sun, Devil). This is the identity you have built up, and you fear losing your "self" by letting it soften (Moon).

This emphasis on the material is beginning to cause problems (Temperance), and it looks like your immediate response is rigid denial (Moon, Devil). This will only lead to bigger problems as your life goes further out of proportion (Temperance). If you persist in this sort of action, you will find yourself locked into a sort of slavery (Moon, Devil), and your innate creativity (Star, Sun) is likely to become blocked (Moon), which is something you particularly fear.

You are being urged to lift your mind a bit higher, raise your horizons (Lady Pope, Devil). Open up and try to accept new ideas (Devil). The world is offering you something to read or study; take up the offer (Lady Pope). Only then will you find yourself ready to begin to change and grow (Juggler).

A deeper, more hidden story here has to do with creation and creativity (Star, Temperance, Sun, Moon). You have creative ability, and think of yourself as a creator. You have been sensing difficulty in this area lately (Temperance), leading you to fear a complete block (Moon). Relaxing your emphasis on materiality will help with this (Temperance).

If I were to do a follow-up reading, I would want to probe more deeply into this topic of creativity, which arose spontaneously within this reading.

I would just like to say, just as Richard Dawkins does, it is the job of the Tarot Readers to prove they work, not us skeptics to prove the don't.

Robbie wrote:
The best book on the Tarot that I've ever read is "The Book of Tarot" by Fred Gettings (1973).

Thanks Robbie I will try to get hold of this - are you aware of any books or articles that attempt to provide evidence for the accuracy/validity of Tarot card readings? (from either side of the fence). Skeptics like me are often accused of being closed minded but I, for one, am not - I just need something more than faith to accept something as fact.

I must inform wild card that it is not our job to prove anything to sceptics. They never give us any money.