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I understand that, but I was just thinking out loud about any underlying reasons. Using the religious example, yes people believe in god, but there is the possibility that the fear of death (etc) is the underlying reason.

If they know that they are hoodwinking people, I'd say that psychics (or preachers) are in it for fame, power, money and personal glorification.

Much like most performers... or con men.

If they are shut-eyes, I'd say that in some cases they think that they have a gift and can help people. There may be an element of greed, or neediness, but I don't think that's the key motivation. Say you're a talented footballer. You love playing and you're good at it. Why not earn silly money doing something that's pretty easy to you?

i think there's a golden rule in life...never believe your own press...

even banachek warns against forgetting that what you're doing is fake in alot of cases, and start believing "things"...i suppose with muscle reading, being so good at it, you can pick up on vibrations minutely...

and maybe its being in character too much? dunno...

and, as part timer said, some genuinely believe they have "the power"..

mark lewis wrote:No matter how brilliant your close up magic and cabaret is the psychic readings will be the hit of the evening if you are any good at all. And sometimes you don't even have to be good. The concept of fortune telling is so strong that you will get away with it anyway.

queen of clubs wrote:

mark lewis wrote:No close up magician can compete with a psychic reader.

That's because they're two different games. You might as well say that Tiger Woods can't compete with Shaquille O'Neal (That analogy might be out of date - I don't follow sport much).

in response to queen of clubs comment:

themagicwand wrote:Not to the general public they're not. Honestly. To the general public they're both magic/weird/spooky stuff... There's no dividing line as far as much of the public go. Believe me on this.

I 100% agree with Mark's comments above, however I don't agree with themagicwand that the public perceive a silk vanish as the same type of "thing" as a book test. Even though sleights, gimmicks, props are often used for magic and mentalism, no logical thinking person believes the silk really did "disappear". However they can be lead to believe they are being mentally influenced, manipulated, "read" some how... and THAT I believe is the difference.

One can be perceived as "real" while one can't.

You may be right but surely not in Australia? In California perhaps but Australia surely no. I have never met an single Australian who believes in psychics. They are the most rabid sceptics anywhere in the world.

Mind you even stage mentalists are subject to great suspicion. I do know that in Britain people are cynical too but not quite in the same class as Australians. As for North Americans they will believe anything.

Jon Tremaine once opined that a third of people that watch a mentalist will believe, a third will completely disbelieve and a third will not care one way or the other but will just go along for the entertainment ride. He believes that the controversy is what keeps the mentalist working.

I am a little more cynical. I think only 10 percent REALLY believe. Another 20% are VERY sceptical. And 70% don't really care. This 70% half kid themselves there is something in it but that is a far cry from outright belief. I think they suspect deep down there is something hokey going on and that the fellow probably is a magician of some kind. But people like to believe in hokey stuff so they will probably suspend their disbelief.

So if you accept my figures (and many probably don't) then only 10% REALLY believe the stage mentalist has real powers. The other 90% either are outright sceptics or kind of half suspect there is a trick involved. The trouble is that the 10% who completely believe are the most noticeable and come up afterwords to talk about their dreams and suchlike so the mentalist fools himself that people think he is real.

Most of them don't unless as I have stated they come from California where the population is very odd.

Of course all this is subject to variation according to the way the mentalist performs his stuff. Contrary to what you might think performing magic and mentalism together STRENTHENS belief in this stuff. That would set off another debate so I won't go into why I believe that. I worked it out a long time ago but I won't get into it right now since it would take ages to explain the psychology behind my thinking.

One thing I will say is that comedy in your presentation will kill the belief factor quicker than anything. That is why old time mentalists would always be serious. However I am not saying don't use comedy-I am merely saying it kills the belief factor for some reason. However you may consider that losing this belief factor is more than balanced out because of the entertainment factor. You won't lose the belief factor completely but you will lose some and the funnier you are the more belief in your psychic abilities will be diluted. You may consider this worth it or you may not. It is a personal choice.

So my rather odd conclusions are that magic will strengthen the belief factor and comedy will dilute it. However this factor is not as strong as people think. There are lots of people who will know in their heart of hearts that the performer is playing a role and they will just suspend their disbelief and half kid themselves that there is something to it. However this is a far cry from outright and passioned belief in the power of the mentalist.

I personally don't like the audience to think I am the real thing. This is ironic since I AM the real thing in the sense that when I do psychic readings I AM the real thing. However in a stage setting I just want to get away from the serious stuff. I do enough of it when I see clients. I need a rest from it on stage.

mark lewis wrote:... Contrary to what you might think performing magic and mentalism together STRENTHENS belief in this stuff. That would set off another debate so I won't go into why I believe that. I worked it out a long time ago but I won't get into it right now since it would take ages to explain the psychology behind my thinking...

Ohh! At the risk of being a total pain, I would love it if you expanded on this please? I would love to hear your thinking as I have felt I have read a lot of posts about the more purist approach in mentalism?
I know you hate me for asking.

Reading these posts makes me realise what a schizophrenic and potentially paranoid area of art we reside in. In varying degrees wanting the audience to fall to their knees screaming "it's a miracle!" and at the same time not wanting to believe our hype and be careful of how far we take it and considering disclaimers etc.

As for the whole "is a silk vanish viewed similarly to a mind reading act" I am always reminded of the film of the book "Casting of the Runes" by MR James? In the story there is this runic black magic spell put onto this guy by this black magician but there is one scene in the story where the black magician is innocently entertaining children with sponge balls in the most generic of fashions.

So I think one can do it all if one presents it and contextualises it properly? Can I have a prize for using the word "contextualise"?

I am also an advocate of blending the two genres, particularly in the preseentation of bizarre magic, which draws on history, philosophy, science, superstition, and spiritualism, etc. and uses many techniques from magic and mentalism.

I have a routine called Le Bateleur (keeps me in the Tarot zone), which is about a French magician who plays cards, bases his bet on four numbers randomnly chosen from the audience, and uses a lady's ring as collateral. It has a three way climax with a ring vanish and reappearance, poker chips adding up to the random number, and randonmly chosen card fitting a royal stright flush. All of this is couched in a late 19th century context.

There are some really lovely routines out there that combine the strengths of both, and when done with care, can produce a strong effect.

Regarding my belief that outright magic may actually enhance belief in the mentalism I have no energy left to expound on the matter but I think I posted something about it somewhere or other. It might be on this site or it may be somewhere else.

It is certainly in my Wit and Wisdom book somewhere. Which reminds me. I think Allen Tipton was going to review it but I expect he got just a bit tied up as busy people tend to do.

This theory would take up quite a bit of discussion and we would all end up going off topic so it may be a subject for another thread.

I used to sell myself as the magician that also did readings. Trouble was everybody wanted the readings and couldn't care less about the magic. So I thought "bu**er it". I was always better at readings than sleights anyway.

I will sometimes (at student or other events that it really is all about the entertainment) introduce a touch of the mentals into the readings of one or two select sitters. It'll give them a story to tell the grandkids.

I can still remember the first time anyone ever read my palm. I was 18 years old and had no idea about any kind of occult stuff (except what I'd read in Dr. Strange comics). I was very drunk in a nightclub and a girl gave me what I now recognise as a truly awful palm reading. However I was incredibly impressed and told all my friends about how this strange girl had read my palm. That was 26 years ago and I still remember it like it was yesterday. That's the kind of memory I strive to leave my sitters with. Except my readings aren't rubbish, they're quite good.

themagicwand wrote:I used to sell myself as the magician that also did readings. Trouble was everybody wanted the readings and couldn't care less about the magic. So I thought "bu**er it". I was always better at readings than sleights anyway.

I will sometimes (at student or other events that it really is all about the entertainment) introduce a touch of the mentals into the readings of one or two select sitters. It'll give them a story to tell the grandkids.

I can still remember the first time anyone ever read my palm. I was 18 years old and had no idea about any kind of occult stuff (except what I'd read in Dr. Strange comics). I was very drunk in a nightclub and a girl gave me what I now recognise as a truly awful palm reading. However I was incredibly impressed and told all my friends about how this strange girl had read my palm. That was 26 years ago and I still remember it like it was yesterday. That's the kind of memory I strive to leave my sitters with. Except my readings aren't rubbish, they're quite good.

I think this is the dilemma I am having with my stuff. I've done readings for nearly 12 years now! And have dipped in and out of magic but on one level it all seems such a lot of effort to start considering centre tears and billet switches when I can actually just pull my Tarot out and read for them which is going to be stronger than any magic effect. I'm still finding my magical feet I suppose. I love magic but intuitively I feel that the readings will always be stronger. How much mentalism would you say you do, MagicWand in proportion to the readings? ie is it 75% readings or even more?

VoodooMick wrote: How much mentalism would you say you do, MagicWand in proportion to the readings? ie is it 75% readings or even more?

Hi Mick. Most of my bookings these days are pure readings. Depending on the environment I may add just a touch of mentalism if the circumstances are right.

I still have some bookings this year from clients who booked me when I was Mr. Magic & Readings, so I shall obviously be honouring those "as sold", however I know from experience that the instant I read someone's palm as part of a routine everybody else will only care about readings and the magic will be out the window.

I'm also very lucky in that I do a lot of work for one company who use me as a reader, seance leader, and glass moving expert. If I didn't have that contract I may possibly have to do more mainstream magic just to get the money in.

At the end of the day I get the most satisfaction from doing readings. So I'm a happy bunny working the way I am now. However I feel no desire to move away from TalkMagic and start posting on some New Age tarot forum. I'm obsessed with Victorian magic, Victorian spiritualism, and carnival freak shows. I think I fit in here at TalkMagic!

Thanks MagicWand, not only for that reply but all your honest and inspiring posts

Well I have now been reading up on tarot for a week and following Enrique Enriuez's teachings. So I am now an expert, any questions just ask.

Not really I just thought I was on youtube there.

Seriously though I have found it all very interesting and not what I expected. To be honest I thought it was more about throwing some cards onto the table and telling you what is going to happen in the future based on those cards. But an aspect I've found very interesting is they can aid meditation and there are reports of Buddhists using them for this.

I'm still only on the first excercise from the book, but I'm just gonna work my way slowly through the material and see how things work out. Makes a very interesting read if nothing else.

mark lewis wrote:You may be right but surely not in Australia? In California perhaps but Australia surely no. I have never met an single Australian who believes in psychics. They are the most rabid sceptics anywhere in the world.

Yes Mark, I agree if you are talking Uri Geller, John Edward, Doris Stokes type stuff. However Derren Brown (yes I know you are not a fan) has carved a living out of telling people he doesn't have psychic powers but he can plant "thoughts" in you mind. Most of us are well area that many of the so called "psychological influences" he refers to are in fact "magic tricks" presented as something more.

Even so, after a few drinks and some prodding from mates, even the non believer can sometimes be convinced to have their palm read or future told. The average Australian will tell all his "mates" it's all c*** (not the best), but deep down in side wonder how you "knew" they had 3 kids and a 4 wheel drive.

Wills wrote:Well I have now been reading up on tarot for a week and following Enrique Enriuez's teachings. So I am now an expert, any questions just ask.

Not really I just thought I was on youtube there.

Seriously though I have found it all very interesting and not what I expected. To be honest I thought it was more about throwing some cards onto the table and telling you what is going to happen in the future based on those cards. But an aspect I've found very interesting is they can aid meditation and there are reports of Buddhists using them for this.

I'm still only on the first excercise from the book, but I'm just gonna work my way slowly through the material and see how things work out. Makes a very interesting read if nothing else.

This kind of open engagement and learning are what I like to see

For some real eye-opening stuff check out Donald Tyson's Portable Magic

Glad you found the EE stufff helpful...it is sure a different way of looking at the Tarot...for a more symbolic view, see Rachel Pollack's 78 Degrees of Wisdom (what a great title).