talkmagic.co.uk

Good morning one and all.

Thought id start a discussion on "the classics"

What do you consider to be the classics. In terms of moves, techniques maybe even routines?

Are the classics still as vital today in magic/mentalism as they were then? or has society changed so much that new classics are more appropriate or been modernised?

Discuss .......................................

F x

One of the most classic card routines that is still strong in modern card magic is "Out of this world" it is impromptu yet incredibly strong.

Oldest trick in the book cups and balls for cojuring and mentalism wise billets.

Good Question - I'm a little torn over this one.

There are certainly some tricks or effects that have retained their original theme, and don't really need to be 'modernised' e.g. Nelson Downs Miser's Dream (been around for years because the plot is simple and timeless - who doesn't wish they could pluck money out of thin air ehh?)

Or card tricks that use the old "Is this your card" - "No?" - "Watch closely" - and then you change it to their selection. The magician who fakes a failure then makes good on their intentions in the end, is a plot line which seems to be as old as the hills.

With regards to sleights, I wasn't aware there were that many modern moves (besides say, overly ellaborate flourishes and cuts). Most of the card, coin or rope sleights I know, are between 50-100 years old. I guess I could do with trying to keep up with any modern sleights that might be out there. It's been a while since I brought a new tution source of material actually. I must be falling behind!

With regards to more modern effects. I do love the quality and ingenious calibre of modern gimmicks and gaffs for close up tricks / illusions - e.g. the ID, or Scotch & Soda coins, or PK rings, or IT reels etc, there are numerous great tricks out there these days, that I often wonder if victorian magicians would have loved to use them like we do, and what the look on their faces would be like if you showed them John Kennedy's Mind Power deck, or a Mirage deck etc.

Short answer is I think it's important (respectfull if anything) not to forget the humble origins of the art of deception. The old school sleights are almost the closest thing to 'real' magic you can get......but I must admit I just love it when the modern magician boffins come up with some amazing new device. (Rob Bromley springs to mind). I guess magic needs a good balance of both. The classics are great - but we shouldn't ignore the fact that the psychology of our society changes so quickly. Maybe it's just the presentation which should be modernised.

I like your thinking Fairiesnuff. Im betting this could be a long thread with some interesting points being discussed. Fair play to you.

Cup and balls for teaching a number of different skills.

I think the classics are just as vital today as they ever were, because without them, we wouldn't have many of the "starting blocks" of today. Take the cups and balls- the oldest trick in recorded history- Now there is no "set" cups and balls routine, but every magician has their own version of it as well as a different presentation (as an illustration, look up Ricky Jay's exquisite version on youtube and compare that with Dai Vernon's version performed on magic circus). If that trick didn't exist then a huge portion of a magicians arsenal would be gone. Also, without the cups and balls, we wouldn't have the chop cup or any of it's variations.
Next the ambitious card. Again, there is no set version, but every card magician has his/her version. Again, without the ambitious card, we wouldn't have this vital blank canvas in which a whole routine can be built around, incorporating many other effects, such as a card to wallet or a colour change.
So in brief, I think that the classics are indeed a vital part of our magic today, because without them, we wouldn't have these blank canvases as it were that a whole routine can be painted onto. Also, perhaps sleights such as a DL wouldn't be so common without the classics that they're attributed to.

I think one classic that has been changed time and time again is definitely Hofzinser's Ace Problem or however it was called the first time.

I personally know about four versions, none of which are bad. The thing is, each version is suited to different surroundings. An in-the-hands version is great for walk-around while Larry Jennings' version works great with a table and a larger audience. Whatever the habitat, i am always ready to perform this miracle card routine.

There also seems to be plenty of Invisible Palm/Open Travelers routines around. They range from extremely simple and straightforward to some quite angle-y but visually lovely and direct. My first choice has always been the one from David Stone's DVD, it really is a spectator favourite.

Sleight - wise, i think the dl, double undercut and the Erdnase colour change are some of the best inventions of card magic i have ever encountered. They all sparked numerous "movements" in magic development and are still widely used today.

TylerMason writes, in part: "There are certainly some tricks or effects that have retained their original theme, and don't really need to be 'modernised' e.g. Nelson Downs Miser's Dream. . ."

First of all, the Miser's Dream was not originated by Tommy Downs, although he did give it that name. (Prior to that, it had been called the Shower of Gold, the Shower of Silver, and about a dozen other names.)

Secondly, and far more important, is the fact that the Miser's Dream has been "modernized" or "updated" dozens of time since it was first performed, (and the "first" performance is shrouded in the mists of time.) or even since L'Homme Masque did it, about 50 years before Downs.

It must be remembered that Tommy Downs, who gained his reputation in London, before returning to the U.S., was essentially a comic magician and his timely humor dated very quickly; therefore, it is not much remembered today.

Peter Marucci wrote:TylerMason writes, in part: "There are certainly some tricks or effects that have retained their original theme, and don't really need to be 'modernised' e.g. Nelson Downs Miser's Dream. . ."

First of all, the Miser's Dream was not originated by Tommy Downs, although he did give it that name. (Prior to that, it had been called the Shower of Gold, the Shower of Silver, and about a dozen other names.)

Secondly, and far more important, is the fact that the Miser's Dream has been "modernized" or "updated" dozens of time since it was first performed, (and the "first" performance is shrouded in the mists of time.) or even since L'Homme Masque did it, about 50 years before Downs.

I wasn't talking about the PRESENTATION not being modernised - I was talking about the classic PLOT not needing to being modernised. If you read the first post of this thread its pretty self explanitory as to what were discussing here.

I never doubted that each performance of the Miser's Dream would differ....you dont need to point out that obvious fact, but the principle of the Miser's Dream effect is still about plucking coins out the air isn't it? (which is the part I was refering to......this part doesn't need modernising.....It would end up being a completly different trick otherwise!)

Don't you think it would be a pretty lame effect if we all started repeatedly plucking credit card, after credit card out of thin air and dumping them into a Louis Vuitton hand bag. Wouldn't quite have the same 'vintage' or 'classical' feel to really?

I think you'll find that Peter was trying to be helpful and informative in his comments, no need to put him down for it with sarcasm.