talkmagic.co.uk

Moans, not moan would be more accurate.

First.

I am fed up with reading that there is nothing new in magic, or that props and effects are outdated.

Are you kidding? Why are you looking at to see if the prop has up to date designs, rather than whether you can entertain/perform with the basic idea? If you think you can, buy them and update them yourself. Have something that is UNIQUE. Change how you use it, add/take away things.
Why are you using props anyway? If you can't come up with anything apart from you need them for the effect, that is all the audience will think about anyway. You need some reason why you are using a dodgy looking box. Up to date designs won't make one bit of difference, apart from making the PERFORMER feel he is putting on a better show.


On the same theme, why do people want new effects anyway? All it means is that everyone else will be buying them, then performing them straight out of the box. Soon, something new and maybe original will just become tired and old, just because those performing are either too lazy, or haven't got any ideas of their own.

A while ago, I made a post that I had scrapped a whole show I had been working on for 6 months, just before putting on a show. It meant that I hadn't practised the old routine in that time. Although I tried to explain that I had spent years practising and had spent a week refreshing myself with them, I was blasted with being a disgrace to magic. I seriously had to considor whether I wanted to stay in magic, with that attitude against me. I made a choice as the new routine just wasn't quite right, even with the time I spent on it.
At the same time as this was going on, I would read comments from people saying they had seen something they liked. They were going to buy it to put straight into their show at the weekend. I still have no idea how this is right, where I was wrong in deciding to scrap 6 months work, because I decided it wasn't ready or right. Maybe instead of saying I had previously spent years on what I did eventually perform, I should have said I bought some props and used the routines as they were.
How is there going to be much new in magic, when people just expect a few "names" to come up with routines for the whole of magic?

Magic is supposed to be an ART. A performing Art, but let's imagine it in the terms of real art, such as painting.

First, artists learn techniques, as magicians learn sleights.

Artists learn how to blend colours, creating subtle shades and highlights. They may paint still life or abstract, yet it is still THEIR impression they put down on canvas.

Magicians expect to be given tracing paper, so they can copy what they see without having a creative thought in them.

I have had a set of Cups and Balls for years.
Every now and then, I have started to learn them. I have always stopped after a while, as I couldn't think of something that would make the routine MINE.
I saw a rabbit puppet while on holiday which was something I thought would be brilliant to use. It was in a bed of lettuce, with finger puppet bugs hidden in the leaves. I left it and have since been thinking if I could do something with it.

Last week, I thought, "cups and balls" with the rabbit performing. Then I wrote 1 ball, 4 bugs. Then Lettuce final load. Then Real rabbit production.
I will only give that basic idea here, but how much is new? Nothing at all. Have they been put together in the way I'm thinking, or will they even work?
I have no idea, but that is part of the magic for me. Magicians who complain there is no new magic left should realise that having ideas and trying to create something yourself, whether from scratch or from existing routines or props, IS part of the magic. It doesn't matter one bit if somebody has come up with similar, unknown to you, or if it works. The fact that you HAVE ideas and that some will work, does matter. Most of the magic comes from performing and entertaining. If you can do this with something that is YOURS, then the magic is real, not just an imitation of others.

I am one of those that feels nervous and doesn't like performing for magicians. I had some very good advice from a 12 year old.
Treat them exactly like any other person and just go out and entertain them.
Good advice, but I wonder if the magicians who are watching should also take the same advice.
There are times when it can be helpful to have discussions about techniques and people ask for advice in File Sharing. As a member of the audience, either at a show you have gone to see, or at a conference, remember you have paid to be there but you are just another audience member. You are not there as a magician. Why complain about others just watching magic so they can see how it is done, when you are doing the same yourself? I know that it would be wrong to say that it shouldn't happen at all, as it wouldn't be human nature not to be curious when you are in the same "business." All I'm saying is let this be secondary to watching the act, rather than the moves.

Those new to magic can be excused the above comments,as they are yet to learn. I made all the above mistakes. If those in magic are seen to be doing the same routines, how are others going to know this is wrong?

Although I have said magicians, I am not putting everybody down. It is aimed at those who will only use props that are routine ready, or routines that they only need to do minimal tweaking to feel they are original.

Originally posted in the Essays section, this has been moved at Darell's request to give everyone else a chance to read and respond.

I hear your pain. I agree with it all. So I don't have much to add. Here is some advice I got from Frank Garcia once. (yes I'm name dropping). I was 14 yrs old and standing behind our counter in the dealers room at a convention and was asked to demonstrate an effect. No problem, I looked up and there was Frank Garcia, there was and I believe Toni Spina and a few others all watching me. I was so a wreck. But I pulled it off. Later I was eating dinner and Frank Garcia came up to my table and congratulated me for doing a good job. He also said that when performing for magicians try not to worry about it. A true professional will do nothing to try to mess up your routine and will do everything to help. Anything less and they are not true professionals who have no respect for magic or other magicians.

Still I do not perform in front of magicians. I demonstrate in front of magicians out of necessity when I had a magic shop. But in those rare moment when performing, or watching another magician, I remember those words.

I'm all for originality in magic. But I have trouble with that being the "Art" part of it.

I subscribe to the Darwin Ortiz school of thought on this one. He has said that too many magicians focus on the Art side of magic and forget the Craft side. In other words, focus on the craft and let the Art take care of itself.

When I read this, it was like a 50 kg weight had been lifted off my shoulders. It struck me as the best advice anybody had ever given me re: my continued pursuit of magic.

Whit Haydn has posted on various forums, including his own, some sound advice regarding doing other magicians' routines. His advice also rang true for me. He says that we SHOULD copy other magicians' routines as a vital learning process.

He equates this learning process to that of a musician's. A musician doesn't pick up an instrument and start playing original works. Instead, they learn the works of past masters and favorites. In so doing, they learn the craft of music, why this music is good and that music is better. Only after playing other works do they have an understanding of what works and what doesn't. When they attain this understanding, then the time is right for them to set off on their own.

This analogy works nicely for magic, too. When learning new stuff, be it cards, coins, or cups and balls, it's best to pick up a pre-existing successful routine and learn it move-for-move. Then perform it move-for-move. Learn it's ups and downs. Most of all, learn why it's successful in the first place. This knowledge of what works and what doesn't is invaluable in constructing original routines!

This works for me too. When I am picking up something new, either new sleights or new props, I always do the original routine first. I'll do it until I'm comfortable with it. In doing so, I am performing what works, and at the same time, "feeling" for where I am going to make my changes and adjustments to the routine and handling. When I'm comfortable with my own thinking and reasoning, I implement my changes, thus making the routine more fitting to my own style of performing.

Those routines that I've adjusted to fit my own style are the only routines I perform for magicians. No reasons here. It's just a quirk of mine.

No real original ideas here, folks. Just stuff I've picked up from others that also works for me.

Hope it works for you too. Have a great day.

bmat,

good advice you got and passed on from Frank Garcia. Will have to think that way way the situation arrises.


Patrick,

Thanks for your post and the different view. Although different from how I look at something, we both aim for the same end result. That is, to change routines to fit our own performances. The problem is, some just carry on with the same "copy" part, without ever feeling that they should have an origional thought.

The "Art" context was so I could put the example of an original versus a tracing copy of a routine.
Magic is a Performing Art, so ALL parts, routine, presentation and skill all go to form that Art.

Thank you for that great post.

This is Whit Haydn's essay titled "Against Originality in Magic."

http://www.timwallacemagic.com/haydn.asp

He explains it better than I. As a matter of fact, Whit explains a lot of things very well. I encourage all to watch his videos and see the work he's done developing his character of "Pop" Haydn. Just Google his name and they'll pop right up.

Originality in magic tends to creep in whether we know it or not. What bothers me is when the "what creeps in" isn't thought out well enough to be considered benificial or an improvement. Mannerisms like tics or inappropriately placed punch lines, substituting one sleight for another less effective, these "contributions" tend to do more harm than good.

It could be construed as Art. But then, grafitti can be construed as Art also. The question is if the contrubutions will stand the test of time.

Patrick here is the problem. I'm all for creating around another person's effect. I'm all for going out purchasing Micheal Ammar's cups and balls routine and knowing it move for move. I've purchased the right to do that. I may even perform it word for word in front of friends or family, (I personally don't do that because I like creating my own patter, but you get my point). But now I'm going to go out and get paid to do 'gigs' (again I already do that I'm talking for somebody who is not quite there yet). Am I booking myself as a magician cover band? Not really.

I am a huge fan of Shawn Farquhar, he happens to be a close friend. I've learned so much from him and he would teach me just about anything I wanted to know, that is the kind of person he is, lets say I wanted to perform some of his signature pieces in my act and I asked Shawn and he said, sure Bri go for it. I put a demo together and hit the cruise ships. I'd pretty be show the door before I got started. They've seen it before they probably had Shawn working for them. A cover band may get a different reaction, it is acceptable. I don't know why but it is.

Obviously there is true and tried. Performing for children. Get a magic coloring book, Run Rabbit Run, Stratosphere, make a few balloon dogs and you are off and running. Same is true for close up, but different. Sure everyone and his mother's aunt does an ambitious card routine. Sure most audiences have never seen one. Sure Darrel's routine is amazing but do you want to be a Darrel. Wouldn't you want to be your own? I would certainly learn his routine, but before I'd go out into the public I'd have my own spin on it. Another magician might come up and say hey that was a really nice twist on Darrel's ACR. That is how it grows, I like to think I'll contribute something.

I agree that originality will come with time. No two people can perform a routine the exact same way and the more you perform somebody elses established routine it should start to become something different in your hands. But there is a fundemental difference and I can't put words to exactly what it is.

I learn from the masters I do not copy them.

I think what Patrick is saying is that he learns from the masters BY copying them, which is the way one learns anything. Learning happens in tiny increments, as does creativity. You don't go from My First Piano Book to writing Beethoven's 5th.

The development of any art (and I am firmly in the "Magic is art" camp) comes from the stealing of ideas pretty much. I would never be so arrogant as to assume that I can come up with more by myself than I can from watching and learning from other people, who have themselves developed and adapted the ideas they've seen other people do.

I am by no means saying that magicians should use other peoples words and presentation, because magic is about the personality (or assumed personality) of the performer more than almost any other performing art. It is certainly more acting than it is card juggling. But if I saw a magicians come out and do Ammar's cups and balls, fair play, it's a good routine. The thing that makes the magic yours is YOU, not your handling of an effect.

I'm not saying I'm against people making up their own stuff, but I'd rather see something good using old techniques than something bad using new ones.

If you want to make a really, really good cup and balls routine, first learn every cup and balls routine you can (afford to) get your hands on. Then you'll have all the tools and knowledge of countless years of experience and work, and what better place to start?