talkmagic.co.uk

Would you like a copy of BOTH books for FREE?

OK, I should start by saying, I bought hard copies of both books from well respected dealers, in fact, more than a year ago, I bought 2 copies of each. I have kept one of each and sold one of each for several times more than I paid for them... even though I paid excessively for them compared to their issue price.

So, my question is this. Now that both books are out of print. Now that the ONLY place to buy legitimate copies is from people who hoarded them in the hope they could sell them at an excessive profit later on...

(1) Now that BOTH the Author AND the Publisher have made their profit and their gain is complete, are people wrong to download these books for FREE on the internet?

(2) BOTH books are easily available to download in PDF format at no cost. Given the ONLY people who are making money now, are people who have bought copies in the same way a "scalper" buys tickets to sporting events, is it wrong to bypass their excessive profit under these circumstances?

(3) What is the difference between downloading these books under THESE circumstances VS Marco's Learned Pig website where numerous books are
freely available?

(4) Should these books, due to the unique profiteering circumstances that relates to THESE books, available to people who demonstrate a level of commitment to the craft free of charge? Who would miss out in this case? Not Derren Brown, Not his publishers, eBay would miss out, hoarders and scalpers would miss out... how important is looking after them?

For reference I want to add I do NOT advocate downloading to bypass profits owed to the authors and publishers.

what are your thoughts? Cast your vote...

[edit] just to clarify, I do not have copies to sell, nor am I proposing I or anyone downloads illegal copies of anything. I am simply raising a question regarding the morality of doing it given the unique circumstances.

From Derren's Site:

Legal Notice
It occasionally comes to our attention that individuals are offering unauthorised versions of Derren's books or video on the net. This is illegal and taken seriously. Whenever we come across this (and we are always informed), we instruct our solicitors to contact the individuals concerned with a view to taking legal action.

Even if no legal action is then taken, the offenders are liable for the legal costs of the instruction and correspondence, which is generally between a thousand and two thousand pounds, but may be more depending on how difficult the offender has been to contact.

As all members should be aware, TM's policy is to not encourage or condone any illegal acts and, in the last month alone, we have passed on full details of three people offering such illegal products. Until advised otherwsie, we'll continue to pass those details on.

As far as the vote goes, it's a bit of a false dichotomy. You missed out the option "Don't buy them". The "scalpers" are just charging what people will pay for them; it's a sellers market, but that's the way it goes.

I am definately NOT saying I disagree with you Mandrake, in fact I am very pro protecting one's intellectual property. However, it is something that must be considered these days, not that it is right... but unfortunately doing what is "right" is not the only consideration for some people these days.

Mr_Grue wrote:As far as the vote goes, it's a bit of a false dichotomy. You missed out the option "Don't buy them". The "scalpers" are just charging what people will pay for them; it's a sellers market, but that's the way it goes.

Don't buy them is an option, perhaps you misread it?

However, Isn't that like saying to a supporter of a team playing in the FA Cup... "just don't go".

Is it Ok for people to hoard these tickets? how is that different to what people are doing with Derren's books?

The difference between tickets and books is that, as far as we are aware, none of Derren's books have been officially released in any format other than the printed page, It therefore follows that electronic versions must be illegal copies and TM policy applies here. Selling second hand copies of the books is a completely different matter as the work is physically passed on from seller to buyer. The prices involved would be a matter of negotiation, if the price asked is too high, then don't buy.

Mandrake has a knack of solving problems and anwsering questions that you thought would take more effort. Darn you Mandrake!

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Isn't that like saying to a supporter of a team playing in the FA Cup... "just don't go".

Yes. You can't always get what you want. The price of tickets and books are determined by market forces - tickets for the final are pricey only because people are foolish enough to spend that much on them, or they actually feel they're worthy of the price.

Mandrake wrote:The difference between tickets and books is that, as far as we are aware, none of Derren's books have been officially released in any format other than the printed page, It therefore follows that electronic versions must be illegal copies and TM policy applies here. Selling second hand copies of the books is a completely different matter as the work is physically passed on from seller to buyer. The prices involved would be a matter of negotiation, if the price asked is too high, then don't buy.

agreed. The similarities are that in the case of tickets and these books, non contributing parties are putting average people out of the market. In Australia at least, in terms of sports tickets, that is illegal.

In terms of electronic versions, would it be different if it was one of TOMO's ebooks?

I can't see where this is an issue, there is never any excuse or justification for selling copies of anything to which the full publication rights aren't owned by that seller and that would clearly include electronic works by Tomo. Original printed copies of books or public domain items are a different category. The question posed was in relation to Derren Brown's printed books and the answer is quite clear - it isn't legal to sell electronic versions because they can only be pirated copies.

(1) Now that BOTH the Author AND the Publisher have made their profit and their gain is complete, are people wrong to download these books for FREE on the internet?

Yes they certainly are. The argument simply does not hold water I'm afraid. It is not about profit nor gain. It's the basic breaking of the law that makes it not right. As well as pirating the material, which makes it morally incorrect too.

(2) BOTH books are easily available to download in PDF format at no cost. Given the ONLY people who are making money now, are people who have bought copies in the same way a "scalper" buys tickets to sporting events, is it wrong to bypass their excessive profit under these circumstances?

Are you, by your own admission - calling yourself a "scalper"? As you admitted, you bought two copies and made money out of it all. You could argue you stopped someone buying a copy (as you bought two) at a fairer price. So seeing it that way, you did the dirty twice? Devil's advocate time. Apologies.


(3) What is the difference between downloading these books under THESE circumstances VS Marco's Learned Pig website where numerous books are freely available?

Out of copyright mainly. And the authors are dead. That'll do it.

(4) Should these books, due to the unique profiteering circumstances that relates to THESE books, available to people who demonstrate a level of commitment to the craft free of charge? Who would miss out in this case? Not Derren Brown, Not his publishers, eBay would miss out, hoarders and scalpers would miss out... how important is looking after them?

Are you being serious? Just because i am committed to something shouldn't give me any special "rights" to have something for free. I note your website in your profile - a free way of advertising perhaps? But what if you were selling something and then sold out? Should i be allowed to buy copies of your goods because i somehow show "commitment"?

As a published author of numerous academic books and articles, I continue to be paid royalties for my writing when it is used for courses anywhere in the world.

I have probably been paid a fraction of what is actually owed to me since students photcopy multiple copies with paying the author, but copyright law requires it.

The same goes for musicians, etc. There is no justification for the position that it is okay to provide these materials for free. Mandrake is spot on.

I am offended you even asked the question and made a poll of it.

DrTodd wrote:As a published author of numerous academic books and articles, I continue to be paid royalties for my writing when it is used for courses anywhere in the world.

I have probably been paid a fraction of what is actually owed to me since students photcopy multiple copies with paying the author, but copyright law requires it.

The same goes for musicians, etc. There is no justification for the position that it is okay to provide these materials for free. Mandrake is spot on.

There in is the difference, as the author you are still being paid for the use. Derren Brown in the case in point is being paid nothing beyond the original sale royalty despite the fact the book is retailing for "100 quid" more than intended. That is VERY different.

bananafish wrote:I am offended you even asked the question and made a poll of it.

Please re read my post, I personally chose to pay the high asking price rather than download an illegal copy. It was brought to my attention today that someone I know downloaded a Torrent of both books, remarking about what I paid compared to what he "paid".

As stated in my original post, I believe downloading torrents of copyright active work that should otherwise be purchased is wrong, I ask the question "what do you think in these circumstances?" because I accept the world is changing and people "justify" their actions because of the "excessive prices" being charged by resellers.

Of course the logical conclusion of any reasonable person is, "stealing can't be justified". However, people do it... and the high prices charged by people who hoard multiple copies IS a contributing factor. When you then consider neither the author or the publisher is making anything additional and the end result is more people download an illegal copy because of the inflated price.

Under normal circumstances, the "market demand" determines the wholesale price of something and this is then reflected in the retail price. In this case however, the retail price has been "adjusted" independent of the wholesale price and that is definately a factor in why some people do this.

YES, I agree it is wrong, I too would like to wrap it up in a neat little bow and say "wrong full stop". But it doesn't change the fact it is happening, and therefore I wonder if there is a better way?

Duplicity wrote:Are you, by your own admission - calling yourself a "scalper"? As you admitted, you bought two copies and made money out of it all. You could argue you stopped someone buying a copy (as you bought two) at a fairer price. So seeing it that way, you did the dirty twice? Devil's advocate time. Apologies.

YES. I believe I admitted that in my original post. Although I had a legitimate reason for originally wanting 2 copies, I did sell my second copy in STILL SEALED condition on eBay, and I did sell it for more than I bought it for.

I wouldn't sell my opened copy because (a) I enjoy owning it, and (b) I don't believe that is "right" with a book like this.

Duplicity wrote:(3) What is the difference between downloading these books under THESE circumstances VS Marco's Learned Pig website where numerous books are freely available?

Out of copyright mainly. And the authors are dead. That'll do it.

Death of the Author does NOT disengage copyright.

Surely, and please - forgive me if i have overlooked part of any argument here; but surely there are only two options regardless?

A) buy one legally
B) get one illegally
Well, admittedly there is a C), which is borrow a copy.

However, to try and answer a somewhat clumsy question (sorry) i will give a somewhat clumsy answer.

There is no better way; the fact that magic items are being pirated is indeed a fact. It will though, boil down to each person's morals and ethics. I require money, it is freely available. I could go and pick-pocket an old lady for her money. Or, i could choose to go and work for it instead. Or, further - i could sit on my bottom and claim dole instead and recieve a small sum for doing so.

If we take the dole point out of this conundrum - i would hope that the majority of people would choose to work for the money, rather than rugby tackle an old lady to the ground and rummage her to within an inch of her life for her pension-money.

Just because others do it, does not excuse oneself from doing it. Give not into temptation.

Is there a better way? Yes, just go without. There's plenty of other books and dvds out there.