talkmagic.co.uk

Firstly this question only refers to sleights and flourishes, not magic tricks.

Does anybody know what legal (copyright) issues there are when it comes to revealing sleights? For example, I’m assuming it’s legal to show someone’s sleights over the internet, but is it legal to reveal how the sleights are done? Can sleights be patented?

Take a sleight like the one handed card palm – many people will have been able to do this and could have thought they had made up their own version, but could one of those people copyright the sleight and call it their own? I don’t think this is the case ..... however, there are many sleights and flourishes that have been credited to authors such as Elmsley Count, Le Paul Spread etc ..... Does this mean that they have rights to these moves.

The reason I’d like to know is that I have seen many websites where sleights are openly revealed as tutorials and was wondering what the legal issues are.

Any information would be appreciated.

I'd be very surprised indeed if you could patent or copyright a sleight and to the best of my knowledge, a patent or copyright only last for about 50 years anyway.

There is no copyright to sleights, but there is copyrights on books containing sleights. The case has never come up, but the owner to the rights for 'Expert at the card table', by S.W.Erdnaese, could sue somebody for exactly copying parts of their work, or a move with a name attached, gives that person some legal standing in certain circumstances, but cases like these will never arise, because there is a general respect for giving credit to the input of magicians, and the attachment of their names to various methods of a said move. In the case of taking legal action against somebody, for the exposure of their methodology, I imagine that the F.B.I. could get involved where the laws explained at the beginning of a single effect d.v.d. are ignored, or broken, but I'm sure that a case would be difficult to build around such circumstances. The American legal system is different to ours, but as a general guideline, a case is only worth taking, if there is an end product available, or a good amount of cash to be made from the investment of time on the case.
This said, I remember reading that the Magic Circle had complained to the makers and producers of the t.v. show, 'Secrets of Magic', for their exposure of certain methods, and I cannot confirm or verify this story, but after reading about it, the show wasn't on again, and I think it only aired two episodes.
The bottom line is exposure, and cheap copies. It's difficult to sue somebody for making a copy of an effect you have designed, if it has a different name and does something slightly different, or it uses the same(stolen) concept, but is constucted differently. This said, all of the larger illusions have plans, rights and patents (not sure about the patent bit) but it's a complicated business in a world where the rights to the song,"Happy Birthday To You", are owned.
Magic, although a business, is not quite as cut-throat as some magicians profess, and it is a very, very trusting and generally respectful business to be in. Of course, there are miserable bu**ers, but imagine what suing another magician for anything, really, would do to their reputation. My friend and I always have a joke line that we throw out, now and again, which is,"If knowledge of the DL ever gets out, we've had it". But really there should be no fear. I have said this to other magicians, many times, when discussing similar topics, "You can go before me and tell my audience how I do everything that I do, and I will still entertain them, because it's the entertainment that can't be copied, not the magic. I have no fear of exposure". Have you ever had somebody tell you about a move that they'd seen(probably on You Tube) and then used that move in an effect without them having a clue that you did? Admitted, there's not many opportunities for this eventuality, but it does occur.
But I digress immensely. To get back to your question, you cannot own a sleight, but you can print, or poduce your version of a sleight, and it's fame is in the hands of those that lurk in the magic world. Many magicians feel that they have something to give to the magic world, and so d.v.d.'s and books are produced, to spread the word and, hopefully, bring a little extra revenue to the table, which is fair going, if the magician is a full-time pro. If you have your own method of something, and you have not seen it before, then you have the Moonbeam(exchange for real name-lol) DL, or whatever the move is.
There is so much exposure with magic, but it will only be seen by those who seek it. The internet has offered easy access to magic, and many non-magicians are uploading videos of themselves performing, which shows in the very poor presentation of aforesaid effects. Somebody has put a version of one of David Williamsons' effects on You Tube and it is horrendous. They also changed the patter, to 'make it better'. And if you look at the comments, they are full of praise!??
I watched a coin effect once, and decided to post my first comment on Metacafe. It praised the performer, and the effect, but I gave some advice about handling, and removing some of the confusion, with the last coin phase, but my comment had disappeared the next day, so I posted it again, this time making sure that it had gone onto the comments. The next day, that one had been removed, too. Upon further investigation, I discovered that this clip was one of two guys' advertisement for their magic, and it wouldn't look good if their first comment was one of advice, from another magician. This begs the question to me, "What are they selling?"
Anyway, I hope that somewhere in my rantings, you will discover a snippet of usefulness (I can't-lol). Hope that I have been of some entertainment, if not help and I hope all is well, that ends well. Thank you fr your time and patience. All the best, Gary.

Gary Williams wrote:You can go before me and tell my audience how I do everything that I do, and I will still entertain them, because it's the entertainment that can't be copied, not the magic. I have no fear of exposure

If we were living in Biblical times, I'd offer to wash your feet. That quote hits it out of the park.

As has been stated, you can not copyright a sleight. You could copyright a written description and in most cases the publishing and claim of copyright would last until 70 years after the author's death.

You cant patent a sleight however. Had you been the first to create, you could have patented the design of the cards that allow you to do the sleight with a design patent. You perhaps could have also patented the unique "surface" of the card that makes the sleight easier to do with a mechanical patent. Patents typically last 20 - 25 years.

Had you been the first to use the term "Ambitious Card Routine" (for example), you could have registered the name of these sleight with a trademark. Trademarks can last indefinately.

However you could not patent the sleight.

To further clarify, had you been first to create, you could have probably patented the gimmick used when performing the "Superman Coin Bend". However you cant patent / copyright / register a trademark that prevents others from doing an effect where in the coin bends.

One of Magic's great weaknesses is that it's Intellectual Property is largely impossible to protect legally. Hence the need to maintain old secrets AND keep creating new secrets.

The other issue with patenting is that patents are public documents. It's not really relevant to sleights for the above reasons, but stage illusion has always had an awkward relationship with patents - if you apply for one, you expose a method, if you don't you open yourself up to abuse.

There's some kind of brew ha-ha going on now about this kind of malarkey on the Dan and Dave web site.

Some chap calling himself TheBicycleman has set up his own web site and he's selling various tricks and flourishes that some people feel belong to them. He claims you can do this and uses examples of very easy sleights found in Expert At The Card Table and Expert Card Technique, that are very well known now and sold by various people in various books and on different sites.

Its odd that its such a grey area, and it seems only the passage of time makes these things universally available. How can someone really ' own ' a move? Its not impossible that someone somewhere came up with the same thing or a variation of is it?

As magicians then, if we invent something, should we expect to eventually see some whippersnapper re-creating our move ( badly? ) and taking full credit for it? Personally, i make no money from my magic, i do it for the looks on people's faces and because i dont have the big, swinging, hairy, pendulous gonads i feel are required of me to do it for a living, but i also feel for those who do put the hours in and come out with a move or idea of complete genius, only to see some snotty nosed urchin armed with a file sharing programme replicating it badly on Youtube.

As a guitar player, i can compare music to magic. Its not original to use distortion, nor bend a string or use the pentatonic scale. These are par for the course if you're playing blues or rock guitar. Everybody does it, yet at some point somebody must have come up with these things. Is it testament to their brilliance that everyone copied it? Does the same apply to sleights? Of course i'd like the best magicians to make money doing what they do, and i always like people getting what they deserve, both good and bad.

Perhaps it all just boils down to one word; integrity. You either got it or you aint.

Kate? Do we have to be in Biblical times? Bring some soap to Blackpool, and we can wash each others' feet. After all, I'm six foot seven, and mine are miles away-lol. Some great posts and advice on this topic. Very impressed. About that quote, Kate, I know that I am by no means alone in my opinion of exposure, because you are the same.... Yes you are. Has anybody ever told you that you look like......oh wotsit..........you know who I mean................. that person, you know.......................... Yes! That's it...... Juan Tamariz?......... Kate? Hello, Kate!?? lol- apologise for my over-familiarity, but with your avatar being a picture of much beauty, I felt in safe water....... Kate?
On the matter of the legalities and complications of copyrights and patents, maybe Crowley had it right, with his, "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the LAW."

Gary Williams wrote:Has anybody ever told you that you look like [...]Juan Tamariz?

That cannot possibly be a compliment. Lommy, kick his shins for me

Back to the topic, though, I think the guitar music analogy is a very good one when it comes to copyright. Nobody can copyright an arpeggio progression through A minor, C, D and F, but if you do it too similarly to the intro to House of the Rising Sun then you're certainly going to get sued. I think it's the same with magic - it's more the overall effect that is copyrighted than the various sleights that go into its "recipe".

Here's an article about magic patents and protecting rights etc. that may be of interest, more US focused, however...

http://magicgizmo.com/home/articles/80-general/60-magic-patents-protecting-a-magical-idea.html

Grimshaw wrote:Some chap calling himself TheBicycleman has set up his own web site and he's selling various tricks and flourishes that some people feel belong to them. He claims you can do this and uses examples of very easy sleights found in Expert At The Card Table and Expert Card Technique, that are very well known now and sold by various people in various books and on different sites.

It's a very odd world. Some bloke who runs something called Blog de Magia (I bet he googles that regularly) is apparently spending his time translating my Visions articles into Spanish and claims he has mine and Shane's permission to do so (Shane runs Online Visions). He has no such permission, but I'm more intrigued than anything because like all Visions columns it's a vanity column (unpaid, gratis, for the love of it, in other words). I only found out on Friday because someone contacted me wanting to translate my random scribblings on yer actual mentalism into Portuguese. Heaven knows the reason why. They could probably both spend their time writing original material of far better quality and depth than I pump out every month for a bit of a giggle.