talkmagic.co.uk

First of all hello, I'm the new guy, I've only been doing it 3-4 years now, so please bear with me. Now normally i refrain from posting on forums for the simple fear of becoming a 'keyboard jockey' ie. someone who posts and talks a lot but cant back it up with any substance. But lately there is something which has compelled me to ask my fellow cardists, conjurers and magicians for their valuable input. When would you consider yourself to be an intermediate or a pro or even a beginner at cards ??? How does one know ? how does one guage their skill level ? Is it when you can do a pass and make it invisible to other fellow magicians ? or perhaps a card trick that baffles other magicians ? Is it when you've mastered most of a particular book or a DVD, and i mean really mastered. Or is it when you can recite page 79 from Royal road to card magic in the midst of your sleep ? For instance i can do certain sleights and then there are some that i cant. My pass may be good but my bottom deal may be outright atrocious. I may be able to do so really impossible colour changes but i may suck at the classic colour change. So my question is How does one know ???

its a mater of personal opinion what level you call yourself but basicly if someone pays you to do some magic your a professional.

For starters, welcome to TM. You may want to make your way over to the introductions section and let folks know a bit about you; it allows old dogs like me to better aid you and also let's other folks feel more comfortable when it comes to sharing insights and information.

Some would lead you to believe that being a "Professional" means that people give you money for doing tricks. In far too many cases people give money to certain performers, just to get them out of sight.

No, seriously... if you are simply doing a few basic shows here and there and less than half of your personal income comes via magic, you are technically what is known as a "Semi-Pro" and obviously, when you are generating more than that, you start moving into the category of being a true "Professional". This is the standard that most magic clubs and fraternities have applied for decades.

Understand however, there are many "Professionals" out there that simply stink and countless "amateurs" that are phenomenal; the standing in this case, does not denote one's level of expertize. I've known dozens of hobbyists whose skills could put most professionals to shame. In fact there are a couple of legends in our world who have an amazing reputation for being terrible at slights (myself for one), their success stemming from personal charisma and business savvy... little other.

Now you've admitted that you've fallen under the spell of playing cards which has to be the biggest field of magical study... one of the reasons I avoid it and likewise loathe it. Understand that I've seen most of the top card workers out there and been blown away by them. This is entirely different than what we find in the majority of those calling themselves "Magician"... which is why, for example, Mike Caveney would put his wife to sleep by asking her to pick a card, as they moved into the Broom Suspension... in short, outside of the magic world, most people find card tricks boring as well as redundant.

I'm not saying this to be cruel, only to splash a bit of cold water on things in hopes that you will seek recovery from such a horrid addiction; start working on coins and other aspects of close-up so as to save your own soul.

My point to all of this is that you can't judge your level of proficiency, which is what I think you're actually trying to figure out, until you place everything on the line and get involved in competitions or start doing demonstrations regularly with the local magic clubs and getting feedback from the membership. Though such feedback can have some bias attached to it (clubs are politically inclined beasts) the networking that they allow is what you are really looking for; how one or two well connected and more "craft oriented" types will steer you into other circles where you will get a more critical eye placed onto your skills. In a brief period of time this will generate word of mouth PR amongst "your peers" which will eventually lead to to an important threshold; deciding whether or not to go pro or just allow magic to be a side-line/a part-time venture.

It is quite tempting when you are getting accolades and winning awards based on your skills. But as a young man I'm working with here in my area has learned, show business is a cruel mistress that demands constant attention; there is little to no room for "distractions" such as having a "normal" family life. She demands the bulk of your time, which is something few that dream of becoming the next big name in the trade, lend pause to for the sake of consideration.

A dear friend of mine is one of the highest paid and most busy psychic entertainers out there. He works strictly corporate gigs at over $5,000.00 a clip and frequently does 2-3 shows for different clients in one day; frequently doing one in the morning in Boston and another that evening in Manhattan or Vegas, etc. For nine months out of the year he's on the road traversing the globe. He and his wife schedule one month each summer to be together with nothing else interfering. Their "kids" are little fury things that bark in that they didn't want to put little humans through the hell they would have to endure when growing up in a show biz oriented world.

I can readily give you a myriad of other "down sides" when it comes to going pro but I feel that pointing out "the price" as it were, when it comes to the sort of life most of us see for ourselves, is more than sufficient, in that I simply want to inspire a bit of thought, little other.

The bottom line is quite simple; you need to get feedback from others when it comes to your skill. Never be content with what you hear from your family and friends (though they are typically your biggest critics outside your self); constantly seek out others and get their opinions. You don't want to ask for them, just listen. If possible, have someone else eavesdropping or recording post show conversations so that you hear HONEST feedback. Then, as I said, get into the competitions. If you are honestly good, the ribbons and trophies will begin to accumulate as well as the encouragement & invitations to move into higher profiled competitions like FISM... even if you took 3rd place at FISM, you've proven that you're one of the best on earth.

I hope this has answered your questions. I'm confident that others will toss in their two-cents as well.

If I may say - what an excellent post from Craig and up to his usual form.

The only minor addition is that a lot of magicians also find card tricks boring to watch. I would certainly recommend that you try to join a magicsociety / club.

As an add-on to the above: while I agree with what Craig has said and, for the most part, share his disinterest in card magic, I will go on record as saying that one of the best live magic performances I've seen has been by Juan Tamariz, who presented over an hour of card tricks.

There is an important caveat to this, though. There's no denying that mr Tamariz is an outrageously skilled cardman, but what makes his show watchable is Tamariz himself. The man's card skills are invisible. In fact, you'll likely not remember him handling the cards himself for most of his routines. You likewise won't care to remember which card a spectator chose or how it was revealed. You will however, remember the insane jabbering maniac who somehow managed to create real magic and had you laughing til it hurts.

Geting back to the question, though, the pros are people that make a living through the craft. The experts are the ones who realise that there's always more to learn and embrace the fact with enthusiasm and gusto. The greats, however, are the showmen and women that make a real connection with their audience and make their performances shine.

Pete

Yeah, great post from Craig.

Some confusing terms really... "amateur" means "not professional", but it doesn't mean you're not very good. "Professional" means earning your wage as a magician, just like "I'm a professional actor" or "I'm a professional model" - a certain amount of skill or experience is assumed, but it doesn't mean you're technically the best at your craft.

Likewise, an "expert" (or "advanced") card technician might be an awfully boring performer... so how so we distinguish between great all round magician, great card skills but low performance, or great performance but only average card skills... all very confusing!

I can only speak for myself - I would class myself as intermediate. I know and can use effectively most of the basic sleights, I use a few advanced sleights, my general magic and sleight knowledge is fairly good, but I'm certainly not "advanced".

And - my pass is pretty terrible

First of all thank you craig for some genuine advice, and a big thanks to everyone who's posted here. I see your point in joining clubs and competeing with others to guage myself. My problem starts with when i see another cardist / conjurer / magician perform and i suddenly feel that I'm not as good. I saw Chris Kenner do the SWE shift at theory11 and it just compelled me to pull out 'expert at the...' and start doing the move till i had it down and sure enough 24 hours later i still suck at it. For instance i see, say Criss Angel and it makes me want to do better. Now I'm not saying I'm that good but who knows given the resources i might just be ! I'm from India btw, I recently saw a local guy on TV, touted to be India's David Blaine, but in my honest opinion this guy was at best....ordinary, not criticizing his skill, his pass, DL's were as good as any. But the routine fell flat, I saw a routine filled with Ambitious cards, DL's, passes, stuff that was done, redone and overdone 50-60 years ago, there wasnt even any flamboyant or mystic or anykind of showmanship. And week after week on every episode it was more or less the same ! The people were no doubt amazed and the reactions were fantastic as they should have been, but still its not expected of someone with a lot at their disposal. Maybe I'm just a very hard taskmaster or very hard to please or maybe I'm even too harsh on myself, and this is what got me thinking along the lines of how would you rate yourself. Are you as good as your last performance or is there more to this.

Craig Browning wrote:in short, outside of the magic world, most people find card tricks boring as well as redundant.

That is a totally unqualified statement. How, then, have I never met a member of this supposed majority you mention? Have I just been massively lucky that nobody I have ever performed for has found my card work boring and redundant? Or is it that I inject a little originality and spice to it and people love it?

Dunno who you've performed cards for but for most of the lay-public if a magician whips out a deck of cards, asks them to choose a card and then finds it in some miraculous way it's just boring, they're intelligent enough to realise it either wasn't a free choice or that you just manipulated their card. Cards aren't 'magical' when used like that to most people.

Given that, it is perfectly possible for them to be entertained by cards. It just has to be original. One of the routine's I'm developing just for that purpose is as follows:
They sign a card and I sign a card. They take their signed card and I take mine. With a snap of my fingers their card appears in my hand and mine in theirs. The two cards are then shuffled thourghly into the pack. I then cut to their card, deal it onto the table give it a rub and it changes into my signed card. I offer to change it back, deal it onto the table give it a rub and it disappears. I snap my fingers, turn over the pack and show it's on the face of the pack. I then hand the pack to the spectator with my card clearly visible on the top and get them to shuffle it to their hearts content. I snap my fingers and ask them if they believe I know where the cards are. I tell them to look under the card box. The card are stuck back into the deck, I snap my fingers and the two cards are shown to be the only face up cards in a face down deck...

Another thing I find goes down well is torn and restored cards. I think Craig certainly has a point to a degree but it's unfair to say cards cannot be entertaining.

It's funny, this whole "lay people hate cards" attitude. I don't agree with it either. I turned up for a gig last year and met the other magician hired - I had my pockets full with coins, sponges etc. and he just had a few decks of cards. I have to say, as much as my stuff was more varied, his got just as good reactions.

They're not just "cards", they're objects. I'll agree - if you're idea of a strong effect is shuffling a pack, then dealing out a royal flush, that's hardly entertainment - effects that rely on a good knowledge of cards and card games are not very accessible. But if they are viewed as pieces of paper or cardboard, pre-marked so as to make identifying one piece of paper easier, it's actually no different to coin magic or sponge magic or anything else.

I get you to take a piece of paper, you write your name on it, I mix it with loads of other pieces of paper and with a click of the fingers it instantly appears in my mouth, in my wallet, inside your bottle of beer - how is that not powerful?

I think card magic has a bad rep because magicians see a lot of bad tricks, and think the public must be sick of them as well. Actually, my housemates - including the girls, and none of them having much experience of cards or card games - all love card magic. So there

P.S. Queenie - love the girl on girl avatar action

Captain Nemo,
The decision on when a person becomes; a professional, amateur, hobbyist, or beginner is not up to that person; it is solely up to one's audience and members of the lay public.

And, BTW, Craig was 100 per cent spot on in his putdown of card tricks. They are, in general, horrible, the same, and the applause one gets for most of them is "pity applause".

'Nuf sed.

Ooohhh...I smell a debate brewing.

I have had people book me - repeatedly I may add - and requested that I just keep it to cards...I am not sure they find it boring, nor is their excitement and enthusiasm pity.

As with anything...it is amazaing what people find entertaining but it is all about the performance. I am an enteratainer that happens to use cards as an vehicle for that entertainment...not unlike a piano player. I find pianos boring and mundane personally, but their is a ton of them sold/played each and every day.

To each their own...."it is not the vehicle your drive, it is where the vehicle takes you that matters"...my repeated bookings tell me that nobody is qualified to speak for the majority on the matter in general...any more than I am able to say that the majority of people find clowns boring, comedians cynical, hypnotist boring, or mentalists overly serious.

I don't happen to enjoy many of the above mentioned enterainment styles, but many have made incredible carreers and livings out of the aforementioned methods of entertaining...our own Mr. browing appears to do rather well staying out of the magic realm, others may do well with coin work - David Roth comes to mind - and some - like myself - seem to make off rather well specializing in entertaining people through cards.

Further call for a Debates section to these boards?

I couldn't disagree more with the concept that laypeople are bored of cards, most laypeople have no exposure to card magic, or if they do it's once in a blue moon.

MAGICIANS often get bored of cards, because almost all of us started doing cards, and have watched countless performances in clubs or on videos, or from other magicians we know. It's always healthy to remember that laypeople know nothing about magic, never think about magic, and only care about magic when it is right in front of them.

I would like to reiterate, again, this point. MAGIC IS NOT ABOUT PROPS. Your magic is about you, how you present and perform these miracles, how you engage the audience. If you're audience is bored, it is because you are boring them, not because you happen to have bust out some sponge balls.

Seredipity says: ". . . .I. couldn't disagree more with the concept that laypeople are bored of cards. . . "

Frankly, I don't care whether you disagree or agree. A fact is a fact. And "pity applause" is "pity applause."

Peter Marucci wrote:Seredipity says: ". . . .I. couldn't disagree more with the concept that laypeople are bored of cards. . . "

Frankly, I don't care whether you disagree or agree. A fact is a fact. And "pity applause" is "pity applause."

And quite frankly, this is a forum for discussion and debate, and if you can't handle contrasting opinions then don't bother posting. I really don't understand this notion that laypeople find cards boring and mundane. At the end of the day Peter, if you want to go on facts, there are at least 3 members on this thread alone (Moodini, queenie and myself) who have had numerous repeat bookings on the strength of their card work. You can give me all of the reaspns under the sun why laypeople should find cardwork boring, or even why you find it horrible, but obviously sections of the public like it. Otherwise, the only performing I would ever do is to my own mirror! I've seen posted on this thread the terms "pick a card any card" used as a symbol for all of card magic- and that is simply ignorant. Have you never watched a mind reading segment using cards? or a gambling demonstration perhaps?? If you think about it, then there is so much more to cards than pick one and I'll find it, like there is more to coin magic than "I put the coin in the hand and it's gone" and there's more to rope magic than "I'll cut the rope in half and bam, it's back together again".