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I've got a snow day and I bet a few of you guys and girls have too, so I thought I'd canvas your opinions about this news item. I realise it's the sort of topic that will have Mandrake rolling his eyes and reaching for the big red button that says "lock thread", but I think we're entirely capable of sharing opinions about this in an adult way... well, some of us are


So, I'm sure you've heard about it: Nurse offers to pray for an elderly patient, patient says no, mentions it to someone else and the nurse is hauled up in front of a disciplinary committee and suspended on no pay.

Should she have been hauled up at all? Should she be suspended? Should she be suspended on no pay? What do you think about the whole issue?


I'll start by clearly stating that as I think a lot of you know, I'm a Christian. However... honestly, if someone from any other religion or belief system offered to pray for me in a time of need I would politely decline, but actually be touched by the fact that the person in question cared enough about me and personally invested as much in my care as to make an offer which, whilst I might not share their beliefs, obviously meant something to them. I would so much rather have a nurse with different views but who cared enough to make that offer, than a nurse who's duties of care and professionalism were technically adhered to, but gave off an uncaring attitude.

I heard on radio 2 today an atheist psychologist who said that if someone asked her that question, her heart would race, she would feel pressured, offended etc. This really surprised me - my initial reaction is "oh, come on..." - but does anyone share her position? The same lady said that whenever anyone parts with the words "god bless", she makes a specific point of asking them not to say it again etc... presumably it offends her... yet she has no problem in going on international radio and saying things which are guaranteed to offend any theist.

Surely there is a limit to how much offence a polite question can cause - perhaps I will get all huffy next time the waiter offers me black pepper when I hate it...

And does this mean that, as someone for whom the following words/phrases actually mean something, it's reasonable for me to ask for disciplinary action to be taken against someone who uses "oh my god" or "jesus christ" as an exclamation or cuss? Truth be told I find these things more offensive than "foul language", but I understand that just because someone says them doesn't mean they are deliberately trying to offend me. It's called tolerance.

Finally - the nurse has done nothing to constitute a lack of proper care or a danger to this patient... I personally feel the issue should never have come up, but given that it has, I certainly don't think she should be suspended without pay. It's not as if nurses rake it in anyway.

Anyway, the above is my opinion: I'm just genuinely interested to see where people lie with this particular situation.

Discuss

Purely as background (not trying to start a debate):
I'm an atheist. I find the idea of religion strange and most organised religions distasteful to varying degrees.

If someone who was religious offered to pray for me I would - as you say - be touched but ask them not to. I cannot understand the attitude of the Radio 2 psychologist. I find it wrong and annoying that non-believers seem to be expected to bend over backwards so as not to cause offense to the religious. Equally, I don't see why atheists should be offended by 'Bless you' or indeed 'Merry Christmas'. Too many people spend too much effort finding things to be offended about.

Charles Calthrop wrote:Too many people spend too much effort finding things to be offended about.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there

I think it was Stephen Fry who once said that when people complain about swearing on TV, they're swearing on behalf of somebody else. They themselves aren't offended, they just think "this sort of thing" shouldn't go on because other people might be offended...

Resisting the temptation to roll my eyeballs or anything else, I've actually discussed this with others this morning. In fact there's more to this than meets the eye, the old lady in question said that she herself wasn't offended but thought others might be. So no actual offence taken. In any event, if the Nurse wants to go away and pray for anyone, that's up to her, nobody can stop her and presumably only God would be any the wiser!

The newspaper report I saw was uncredited but is:

Nurse suspended for prayer offer

A Christian nurse from Weston-super-Mare has been suspended for offering to pray for a patient's recovery.

Community nurse Caroline Petrie, 45, says she asked an elderly woman patient during a home visit if she wanted her to say a prayer for her. The patient complained to the health trust about Mrs Petrie who follows the Baptist faith.

She was suspended, without pay, on 17 December and will find out the outcome of her disciplinary meeting next week.

Mrs Petrie, who carries out home visits in North Somerset, said she had asked the patient if she would like a prayer said for her after she had put dressings on the woman's legs.

The patient, believed to be in her 70s, refused and Mrs Petrie insists that she left the matter alone. The sick woman contacted the trust about the incident and Mrs Petrie was challenged by her superiors.

Mrs Petrie said: "The woman mentioned it to the sister who did her dressing the following day. She said that she wasn't offended but was concerned that someone else might be.

"I was spoken to by my manager. She said 'I've got a letter in one hand and an incident form in the other. You won't be able to work until we've investigated this incident'."

Mrs Petrie, who qualified as a nurse in 1985, said she became a Christian following the death of her mother.

"My faith got stronger and I realised God was doing amazing things in my life. I saw my patients suffering and as I believe in the power of prayer, I began asking them if they wanted me to pray for them. They are absolutely delighted."

A spokesman for North Somerset Primary Care Trust said: "Caroline Petrie has been suspended pending an investigation into the matter.

"She is a bank nurse and has been told we will not be using her in this capacity until the outcome of our investigation is known.

"We always take any concerns raised by our patients most seriously and conscientiously investigate any matter of this nature brought to our attention.

"We are always keen to be respectful of our patients' views and sensitivity as well as those of our staff."

Mrs Petrie says that she has taken advice from the Christian Legal Centre, which aims to protect the religious freedom of people who follow the Christian faith.

I suspect there's probably a lot more than reported so far but no doubt it'll all be sorted in due course.

I refer to myself as proudly agnostic. As such, the issue of right and wrong is very closely related to the amount of harm done. If someone prayed for me, there would be no harm done. At worst, it's a pointless exercise, and they're perfectly entitled to waste their own time. But yes, I'd also be quite touched.

Unless of course they're praying for me because I'm a filthy heathen destined to burn in hell. I'd probably get a bit narked about that.

Pete

I state this as background for my honest opinion. I abhor religion. Not just christianity, but religion in general. That said when people offer to pray for me I generally just ignore it. The only time I refuse it is when they offer to pray with me. I dont find it offensive, just a waste of time. I dont deny the existence of a divine precense, I merely dont partake in worship of something unseen. So why this is an issue is purely in my honest opinion is stupid. Let her pray, and if it didnt offend the patient, she shouldnt have said anything to begin with.

It's encouraging to see some people have retained a sense of proportion!

Surely the british response is, if it's not your cup of tea, just give a wry smile and politely refuse...

There seem to be some inconsistencies (surprise surprise) in what the press are saying... "complained to the health trust" and "mentioned it in passing to another nurse" are quite different, you'd think.

One thing that's irking me about this is how so many people are rushing in with, "faith/belief/religion/spiritually do not have any place in the healthcare system."

This is of course not true... the NHS hires hospital chaplains belonging to different religions, and all healthcare workers are taught to treat patients as holistically as possible - in physical, social, mental and spiritual terms. And by spiritual it does not necessarily imply involvement of an organised religion, but the whole-ness of person, their personality, their beliefs etc. whatever those may be. In that sense, I would try to understand the "spiritual" needs of my patient even if they were an adamant atheist.

If the nurse judged - as many might - that a lady of an older generation who is likely to have at some time been vaguely involved with organised Christianity might appreciate someone offering to pray for or with her, I think it's a perfectly acceptable action, and fully expect that many scared and lonely older people have hugely appreciated it.

If she were to offer to pray for me, I think I'd ask that she instead use her time constructively in providing me with care, not just silently sympathising with my condition.

Its a very personal thing isnt it, although personally i have prayed with and for people that have asked even though i am a non-believer.
I have also been blessed by many different religions due to little old ladies i have looked after being kind, may as well hedge your bets .... lol...

F x

i say crucify her and be damned with it...

its clearly people with too much time on their hands, with no sense of reality - it was a little presumptuous to say "shall i pray for you?"...maybe just ask "are you religious at all? what faith?" and even that is too much to really expect someone to ask...

it was obviously just a well meaning comment...its not as if she was offering to slaughter an ox on her behalf or anything like that...

though, personally speaking - i'd rather she did slaughter me an ox, and fix me up a lovely big juicy steak...

hmmmmmm.....steak...

maybe they should employ a satanist instead? "Buy your soul before you kick the bucket?"

I'm not an atheist but regardless of being raised a catholic I don't practice any formal religion. If someone of any faith offered to pray for me at a difficult time I would accept and say thank you. To me it is less about the belief in divine intervention and more about accepting a kindness from another human being, which is mostly the way it is intended. You personally may not believe but I don't think it does any harm. Of course atheists too may offer such a kindness done in another way, its the intention that counts and that supports us in hard times. I was once blessed one after the other by about 30 Muslim women I had worked with doing craft workshops and it was actually a very touching experiance and in no way was I offended even though I did not share their faith.
Anyway about the nurse I don't think she did anything wrong and it is sad to see a much needed health worker be removed from her position for such a trivial matter, they could just have said to her to refrain from doing it again.

One of the reasons it worries me is because NHS workers are under constant pressure to simply act like drones and follow some flow diagram, having no personality, creativity or be individuals in any way. They're talking about making NICE guidelines compulsory which will mean that doctors will be able to get into serious trouble for not following what are supposed to be exactly that - guidelines (surely a compulsory guideline is a rule? Or a command?).

What the government seem to want is for you to arrive in hospital and be seen by a chain of faceless facilitators who can process you according to their specific algorithm, and nothing more. Because it's cheaper to hire people who are trained to follow instructions on a piece of paper than people who are trained to think independently about what the problem is.

Of course, to any sensible person, this instantly raises the question "what happens when situations push people beyond their guidelines...?" - but that'll never happen, right...?

Sorry, off on a tangent. My point is: so, one nurse is a Christian and offers to pray. Perhaps another nurse is a part-time masseuse and offers to massage, or the nurse is a magician who offers to brighten their day with a little magic. Whatever. I agree with PC Wells - no harm is done, and providing that's the case, why not allow people to be themselves and enjoy the diversity?

On the other hand - would you rather had had one of a number of nurses who have killed their patients in recent times?

Seems to be more acceptable to kill than to pray these days .

Not sure about that, dat. I think their punishments were somewhat stiffer than a suspension.

Any right-thinking person can see this is just bonkers though. Reminds me of a headline I read recently where a teacher in FLorida was removed from his job after performing a sleight-of-hand routine with a cocktail stick, and accused of 'wizardry'.

As with all topics of outrage in the tabloids I have to wonder whats not being said.

For example is this the first time this nurse has done this? Has she been warned not to? Did the people in charge think the old woman was offended even though she said she wasn't? Was the old lady offended but changed her tune when the papers grilled her?

Any of these could be the case and it might be that this nurse has been shown to not consider other people world view, and so is unsuitable for looking after the weak sick and dieing.

However put yourself in the mind of a religious person (if your atheist).

I think there is a difference between believing in god and being religious. My dad has a close personal relationship with god but is not part of any church. Religion is more than god it is also a structure of belief with rules and rituals, including things that are 'true' and 'false'. (Im not implying they're not true or false by putting them in ' ' not am i implying they are) If you do have a religion that say's god is all powerful and will answer your prayers, and if this nurse believes this to be true (which we should assume she does) then wouldn't it be required of her to do everything she thought was possible to help heal the sick?

Asking a religious person to respect other religions or tone down the religious talk or not pray for a dieing person, is akin to asking them to accept their religion is not real.

It's a complicated issue which is why I'm avoiding expressing any opinion.