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I prefer to call it stretch the truth.

surely if you think about it a joke is a lie ( a polar bear walks into a pub...) but as it is under the cover of entertainment it is seen as such. as long as you use magic as entertainment it should be fine to use an untrue story to make a more entertaining show/ trick

I don't see why this argument exists, to be a good magician there is very little you can do that does not involve direct lying. You can mess around and call it "bending the truth" or whatever but it's not. Saying 'and I'll put your card right in the centre of the deck' when you put a dupe in is as direct a lie as telling your wife you're not having an affair when you just got home from the secretaries gaff! The consequence of the lie may be worse but there is no difference in the fact that you just told someone something that was not true.

Don't be an idiot and try to kid yourself into thinking you can be honest as a magician, the best you can hope to be is 'honest about your dishonesty' (cheers Derren!) and not much more than that.

Hell in my show I don't think I'm ever not lying... Yep every effect in my show involves me standing up on stage and telling the most outrageous rubbish to the spectators!

Its not lying...its just as much of a lie as being an actor...you could say they lie constantly?

To quote some theatre toilet grafitti "after all we are but actors and all our lives are lies..." Actors lie all the time but the lies are implicit. We all implicitly know that I am not actually Henry V but I still act like I am. A magician explicitly lies, the spectator doesn't implicitly know that the card you stuck in the centre wasn't her card but you explicitly told her it was.

Okay that's convoluted but yeah... Actors never explicitly lie with the intention to deceive where as magicians intend to deceive.

derren brown once said that people ask him if he uses his 'powers' to pull women, his response was 'yes' - hmmmm does he ever stop lying???

Harry Guinness wrote:I don't see why this argument exists, to be a good magician there is very little you can do that does not involve direct lying.

Just for starters, what about silent magic acts? There are lots of tricks that naturally avoid direct lies, or could be structured to do so. Perhaps not effects in your repertoire, but many suitable tricks exist.

I have to say, though, that any magician who is unwilling to lie is making life awfully hard.

Even silent magic acts would be lying by deed. You demonstrate 5 'solid' rings. You give the illusion your dancing cane isn't supported. They're all still lies!

That's not direct lying (as per the quote in my last post).

okay touche! But it is still very little compared to what you need to lie to do.

I must say this is a very odd conversation. Magicians do seem to lead sheltered lives. No doubt that is why the majority of them are very colourless individuals.

How on earth can you get on in life unless you can learn to lie, cheat and steal? Lying should come naturally and never a thought given to it. Why even discuss it.?

As my old friend Murray the escapologist used to say, "If you go through life and never do business with a crook you will never get anything done"

However if you are mamby pamby enough not to be able to cheat and steal at least learn to tell lies. You are supposed to be magicians not Sunday School teachers.

Harry Guinness wrote:But it is still very little compared to what you need to lie to do.

Yep! I also agree with Mark. Seriously, if you want to tell the truth, become a politician.

*IRONY WARNING*

"Lies are the beautiful dust that enhance all objects" - Albert Camus.

catweasel wrote:derren brown once said that people ask him if he uses his 'powers' to pull women, his response was 'yes' - hmmmm does he ever stop lying???

Derren and Nyman have an excellent word they use to describe the false process they create: the fauxcess (faux process).

Tomo wrote:

catweasel wrote:derren brown once said that people ask him if he uses his 'powers' to pull women, his response was 'yes' - hmmmm does he ever stop lying???

Derren and Nyman have an excellent word they use to describe the false process they create: the fauxcess (faux process).

Lies!