Witch Burnings...

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Postby Craig Browning » Jun 27th, '09, 15:40



You speak of the fanaticism around Harry Potter... here in the states there's been a movement to keep "kids" from watching or reading anything in which "magic" is a part, including the classic fairy tales, Wizard of Oz, Alice & her various friends, and so forth. HOWEVER, these same opinionated schmucks are creating (plagiarizing) these same stories, replacing the "magic" with the excuse of being "the power of God" or whatever similar context you may wish to apply i.e. faith, prayer, etc.

Historically "the Church" has always started off screaming and condemning this or that "thing" until they realize that they too can exploit it and use it to their advantage. Little things such as renaming and trying to redefine the various Pagan holidays of old as well as the various symbols, wisdom teachings, etc. of this "cults" all the way up to the more recent adaptation of MTv styled videos, rough & tumble tattooed Christian Rock Bands, Hemp Jewelry, and a myriad of other such things all support the fact that hypocrisy is the primary cornerstone of their "faith" -- Do as I say, Not as I Do, their primary mantra.

I loathe all forms of organized religion be it Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or the more recent incorporation of various Native American traditions; when human being "organize" you end up with politically based game playing in which ego and arrogance replace both, faith and adherence to the theology and idealism said tradition is based upon. Because of this we end up with the two-bit lawyer types who focus on one or two "issues" from within their scripture via which they can justify a course of extremism/bigotry and as these articles reveal, justified homicide as well as "Martyrdom", which is nearly as ignorant though a hint more honorable in certain cases.

I'm amiss as to how "we the people" can impose upon such zealots the fact that they must learn to live by their own standards and let others live by their own -- that it harm none, do as thou wilts... the sad reality being that we are likely to see things like this escalate, even within the realms of our educated, industrialized communities until it all comes to a head... it's a frightening thought but if you look at the prophecies within these extremist faiths, it is part and parcel to their agenda and goal of global domination... just one of the reasons I think governments the world over need to start taxing the hell out of all religious groups & clergy as well as set up laws that curb (neuter) their agressive and obviously deceptive/manipulative ambitions... :?

:shock: yea... I'm thinking out loud... John Lennon was right 8)

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Postby pcwells » Jun 27th, '09, 16:35

If you haven't already seen it, I'd highly recommend the movie Saved! (2004 - Brian Dannelly).

The final five minutes is contrived and - ironically - preachy, but everything leading up to that point is quite cutting and absurdly funny.

But it's full of references to this kind of thing - Christian This, Christan That.

And I never thought I'd laugh so much over lines like 'please let it be cancer!'.

Pete

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Postby Infinite » Jun 29th, '09, 16:35

Saved is pretty funny.

To Craig's point I have one semi-famous quote attributed to me. By semi-famous I mean quoted by other people who know me... lets not get carried away and think it goes beyond my 3 friends :)

"It is not so much your religion that concerns me. It's that you THINK your religion concerns me."

Any system with power will be abused for power thus all we can do is topple it over every so often so the power gets moved around.

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Postby the Curator » Jun 29th, '09, 17:03

Witch burning can be fun sometimes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

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Postby Wishmaster » Jun 29th, '09, 17:14

the Curator wrote:Witch burning can be fun sometimes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

ROFL! Classic!

I love Monty Python

We are the knights who say....Ni :D

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Postby Farlsborough » Jun 29th, '09, 18:40

Craig Browning wrote:Historically "the Church" has always started off screaming and condemning this or that "thing" until they realize that they too can exploit it and use it to their advantage.

...the fact that hypocrisy is the primary cornerstone of their "faith" -- Do as I say, Not as I Do, their primary mantra.


Don't you relieve people of their money to do readings, Craig? Isn't that abusing their superstitious beliefs?

Ah - I forgot - it's for entertainment! But if we're being honest, that's not the real basis on which people seek readings, is it? My husband's left me, my business has crashed, my father just died - I know, I'll go and get me some entertainment!

But yet you're dead against charlatans who profess to have supernatural powers for monetary gain :?: I believe you were saying something about hypocrisy being a cornerstone...

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Postby bmat » Jun 30th, '09, 14:37

I'm not saying I agree with burning witches or that there are even witches, and of course then one would have to define a witch. But it is interesting on how quick we are to judge heck I can't even use the word C.R.A.P on here without it being edited out. Not that I am actually comparing one thing to the other I'm suggesting that we watch how and who we bash.

I personally find it offensive that the world is basically now singing the praises of a child molester. But everybody seems to have forgotten that.

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Postby Lady of Mystery » Jun 30th, '09, 17:22

There is absolutly nothing wrong with people believing what ever they want to believe and belonging to what ever religious group that they want to belong to, be that a Christian Church or a Wiccan Coven. The problems are poeple attitudes and lack of tollerance, we can all go blaming organised religion but at the end of the day, it's not the organisation that's at fault but the attitudes of the people who are part of that organisation. People need to respect each other, if we respected each other and each other rights to believe in what we want or worship who we want then the world would be a much nicer place.

I've got a pagan background but often take part in shows put on by a local Christian drama group. Not because I believe in their ideologies or teachings but because they are genuinely lovely people and the work that they raises alot of money for some very good causes.

We all need to put our prejudices and stereotypes to one side and just get along.

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Postby Wishmaster » Jun 30th, '09, 18:09

Nicely put, Lady of Mystery.

I am the Hole Tempting Champion! Look at my avatar for proof ;-)

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Postby Craig Browning » Jun 30th, '09, 23:44

Farlsborough wrote:
Craig Browning wrote:Historically "the Church" has always started off screaming and condemning this or that "thing" until they realize that they too can exploit it and use it to their advantage.

...the fact that hypocrisy is the primary cornerstone of their "faith" -- Do as I say, Not as I Do, their primary mantra.


Don't you relieve people of their money to do readings, Craig? Isn't that abusing their superstitious beliefs?

Ah - I forgot - it's for entertainment! But if we're being honest, that's not the real basis on which people seek readings, is it? My husband's left me, my business has crashed, my father just died - I know, I'll go and get me some entertainment!

But yet you're dead against charlatans who profess to have supernatural powers for monetary gain :?: I believe you were saying something about hypocrisy being a cornerstone...


And might I ask why you are deliberately poking the bear?

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Postby madvillainy » Jul 1st, '09, 01:42

I think he has a point though, and I'd be interested to see a response.

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Postby Craig Browning » Jul 1st, '09, 05:31

His "point" is the typical cynical magician's point of view that is all so frequently taken by those who are as pure as the driven snow. In short, those that do not like or appreciate Readings or those that do them; they tend to do all they can to paint such practices in the negative, even though they have little to no honest leg to stand upon when it comes to the issue.

But, as I explain to all of my students and those that read any of my books and a good score of my articles, larceny is not something that automatically happens when one does Readings. If however, you are prone towards such manipulations and predatory actions, you will exploit said skills just as we find young magicians using "stage" pick-pocketing skill, Hypnosis and other antics as a way to run hustles and run with the cash.

The idea that (for an example) I am "abusing" folks and their beliefs, I think you would find that such an assumption is very far from the truth. Most legit Readers are quite empathetic, especially those of us that understand both sides of said fence. When I do Readings or even when I'm doing workshops on Psychic Development I am telling people the truth and encouraging them to set the rainbows, butterflies and boogiemen off to the side and understand it all from a more down to earth point of view. Oddly, the magic world refuses to see how, for instance, a broad chunk of the methods taught for generations for cultivating psychic abilities are IDENTICAL to what we so arrogantly take credit for "discovering" and smugly regurgitate as some form of intellectual proof of superiority.

Yes, there are those instances in which someone in my position MUST work with a client that possesses exceptionally strong religious and cultural superstitious or traditional views. In order to help such people you have to speak in a language they can understand and accept rather than speaking down to them, mocking them or blatantly telling them they are stupid because of such things... this latter course creates (or expands, as it were) the rift between believer and skeptic; the primary result being that the people of faith will dig their heels in deeper and cling to the "archaic" more because of such insults and lack of understanding/compassion.

As to the line about "Readings for Entertainment Purposes"... you will never hear me use that cop-out (I loathe it!) I'm AM a Reader, end of story. I don't need some sort of silly linguistic clap-trap to quiet my conscience about such things in that I know I do no harm at any level. Further more, I am at least 5th generation in my family line that does Readings, Dowsing and "Healing" work. Like several others (some of note) I have studied and been initiated into several Shamanic as well as Magickle traditions but I likewise have more than a hint of "seminary-ish" training under my belt an a heck of a lot of history, a counseling degree amongst other qualifiers, including certification in Grief Counseling and induction to a shamanic tradition of "Death Walking"

My familiarization with Magick/the Occult and folklore allows me to prescribe the proper placebos to those that cannot accept anything other. Like it or not, most of the world is composed of people that have faith in some sort of omnipotent thing that is beyond mortal comprehension. In many of these cases these same sane and educated folks also believe in spirits, energy fields, angels, and a myriad of other things that NO ONE has the right to tell them is bogus. Yet, we do have an obligation to "nudge" them towards alternate explanations and/or scenarios in a manner that is not threatening or demeaning.

When it comes to the issue "Super Natural" anything... I don't believe it. Nothing can exist that is beyond Nature. However, there are things that exist that do go outside our present ability to understand, prove the existence of, explain, etc. There are likewise those that can bring about some very amazing things as well as circumstances in which the "miraculous" does happen. To coin a phrase, "been there, done that and have the T-Shirt to prove it."

I have and will continue to seek out and exploit those that wrongly take advantage of the public regardless of what vehicle they use but most especially when they are using the idea of religion, spirituality and magick as their front. In my book there is nothing more contemptible other than perhaps, a child molester.

I have pointed out here and on other forums the fact that I have had my life and that of my family, put in peril as the result of my investigations into corrupt Psychic situations and assistance in helping local law enforcement agencies in California, Nevada and now here in Massachusetts, prosecute and completely break-up such confidence rings. I likewise educate both, the general public as well as professional law enforcement in awareness and evaluation tactics when it comes to this sort of situation as well as potentially dangerous cults... that includes doing FREE talks in area schools, libraries and senior's homes.

I do find it ironic how I tend to be a Reader and "believer" and yet I do more physically in educating folks about this problem than those cynics within the magic community that would like to see my head on a platter; those that have to pump themselves up on the JREF, CSICOP and of course Skeptical Inquirer sites and yet most wouldn't know a real charlatan if they walked up and bit them (let alone having the balls to bust them).

Fortunately there is a difference between Skeptics & Cynics and too, I am in the company of some very good people who are likewise targeted by that ignorant as what a charlatan is and is not... but then what do people like Richard Webster, John Riggs, or Jerome Finley know about Mentalism? :roll: Each of them have been horribly treated by the very people they've reached out to share their knowledge and insights with.

I'm far from being a hypocrite when it comes to this issue. I know the difference between those that are legit in their work and claims vs. those that are running a razzle. Like most of my peers from within that world, I know how to identify those that need the sort of help I cannot give them and yet, because I am credible, I have licensed mental health professionals that will refer clients to me (and other Readers) because they are wise enough to know that we can go places with that client they can't. They understand that when it comes to counseling and dealing with things, that the majority of folks will go to their bar tender, barber/beautician, a cab driver, or psychic before they go see a priest (clergyman) or shrink; sometimes the order varies slightly, but there remains the ironic fact that more people trust the Reader & Priest over those pedigreed double-talkers, many of whom love getting their wealthier patients hooked on drugs rather than helping them find, even a fantasiful solution to the problems they are juggling and the lessons they are trying to learn.

The issue I spoke about regarding organized religion is how it tends to usurp and implement the very things it was damning and disfellowshipping people over a generation previous (or less). It has nothing to do with the things offered in Farlsborough's post and what I had to explain (yet again) in this one. His knee jerk it would seem, dealt with my charge that the "church" is founded on pure hyperbole in that less than 5% of its membership seems even half-way capable of coming close to being what the rest keep raising hell about being the way everyone else must be and live.

Understand however, my animosity towards religion is directed towards ALL forms of "organized" faith; it is all fickle in that it is "guided" by silly mortals who are influenced by all kinds variables, such as greed, a lust for power, ego, being at the top of the proverbial heap... just look at how many Popes died of poisoning or assassination and the backroom shenanigans pulled by this and that influential family (or kings) seeking to control that particular seat of power over the past 1750ish years. Trust me God is nowhere in that picture nor is the divine purity of said individual... and that goes for a plethora of Protestant schmucks (a.k.a. Evangelists) as well.

That said let me screw with your head on one other front...

I'm a firm believer that every soul should read and study the scriptures... ALL OF THEM! That means kids should know the bible and the history behind its compilation, the books that were omitted and to what lengths Constantine & Co (and I am aware that he wasn't around for the entire canonization process, but he did set the spark to the flame) went to destroy any and all religious or philosophical ideology that might challenge this "invented" thing. But they should know the Koran as well as the Bhagavad Gita, the teachings of Buddha, Confucius and all other great leaders and teachers that were viewed as the voice pieces of the Divine. I'll go so far as to say that it should be taught in our Public Schools.

Why?

Well, this reply has been long enough so I'll not start down that route. But I bet less than a dozen of you will have a clue as to what my answer would be. :wink:

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Postby Lady of Mystery » Jul 1st, '09, 09:12

oh come on, let's not get into a stupid arguement over faiths and beliefs. Can't we just let people believe and think what they want to think without battering our own beliefs down each others throats?

A little bit of respect is all that's needed.

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Postby themagicwand » Jul 1st, '09, 09:14

Lady of Mystery wrote:
A little bit of respect is all that's needed.

Absolutely. Next thing you know we'll be burning each other.

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Postby Mandrake » Jul 1st, '09, 10:00

This is one of three threads (the others are the NLP and Hypnosis ones) all going down the same route and it would be a shame to lock them. In all these matters there are strongly held beliefs and opinions which need to be respected, not necessarily agreed with, just respected as a valid point of view.

Can we leave it to the good sense of TM members to self regulate the emotions and get back to interesting and informative discussion please?

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