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i should say, i mean that anyone who reads the tarot as an example, and does it outside the arena of entertainment and as part of their mentalism performance...

if they believe in the tarot, and that they have psychic ability - then they need not rely on such trickery as cold reading...

Whether cold-reading is trickery or not is a bit of a red herring. It is a legitimate tool that produces legitimate results.
Of course you could do a reading using just tarot cards, belief, and no cold-reading, but it would be a c*** (not the best) reading, because tarot cards have no inherent power, and there is no such thing as psychic ability.
That is why we use cold-reading. That is why the TV mediums use it. Tony.

well, everything is a legitimate tool when it comes to performing i think...

though i would disagree with you over that "tarot have no inherent power" - i believe they do, dependant on your definition of the word 'power', as symbolically i feel that they can be interpreted as art and therefore have an inherent meaning to each individual...

tony - just so i understand what you're saying properly, as you saying you dont believe in the tarot, and technically you could use anything that enabled you to give a reading, as you are using your cold-reading skills to get your results?

and as a matter of interesting, if you dont believe in psychic power, why and how do you use the tarot in your presentation? as inherently, using tarot will indirectly suggest that some kind of fate/power is at play to most members of the public...

its sounds a bit like a vegan using a sausage as a headrest to me...

certainly not having a go, please dont read it as that - just interested!

I totally don't agree that a tarot reading needs to involve any cold reading at all. When I give a reading I use purely what the cards are saying and what I feel. The cards themselves of course don't have any actual power but they do hold a meaning and it's that meaning which a reader interpret.

I've no experience, but isn't cold reading as much about the adjustment as anything else? To me, any divinatory system is really just a way of producing a random source of content that you then adjust from to match whatever feedback or impressions you get from the person. It's also a powerful bit of misdirection, as the information appears to be coming from the cards and not from you.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I totally don't agree that a tarot reading needs to involve any cold reading at all. When I give a reading I use purely what the cards are saying and what I feel. The cards themselves of course don't have any actual power but they do hold a meaning and it's that meaning which a reader interpret.

Yeah... a bit like a Rorschach test, but less sterile

And in the right hands, it may be just as effective for all I know...

To answer Iain's question, I don't see any issue with using tarot cards and not believing in them. Several bizarre performers use mock Egyptian props, but no one expects them to believe in Isis and Ra. The tarot are just a tool. They provide a story and a context for my reading. And they look cool.

Others have pointed out that they have a symbology and an artistic meaning. True. I appreciate that. I even enjoy that. But it doesn't give them any mystic powers.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I always considered a hot reading one where you had information on the client, and a cold reading one where you had none. So whether you begin a cold reading with Barnum statements, card interpretations, or I Chang, you are still doing a cold reading. You throw out the initial statements, see where they get you, and move on from there.

I must say that I agree with Tony here . I have certainlty used tarot cards (and playing cards) and there has been no discernible difference on the reading - Because I wasn't using them to provide the reading, merely as a tool to provide a 'basis' (or misdirection) for the information that I was telling the subject...

I would be really interested in hearing from our good Lady Of Mystery about they meanings of the cards (I mean that sincerely!) as in my experience they have had no bearing on the reading at all and I certainly have never used them to help with a reading - merely to move it along.

cheers,

Sean

Craig Browning wrote:I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I am in the process of taking that original article and turning it into an actual book with the intent of guiding the curious along the early portions of the famed trail. I can see how that may become a temporary tool kit

Craig, I worked my way up to account executive with McCann Erickson at Bonnis Hall in the 1980s. My experience says that if you've already given something away, people will resent you trying to restrict it and make money off of its popularity later on. It just needs rewriting to read "clean". I hope you understand and don't think I'm gettign at you saying this.

Klangster1971 wrote:
I would be really interested in hearing from our good Lady Of Mystery about they meanings of the cards (I mean that sincerely!) as in my experience they have had no bearing on the reading at all and I certainly have never used them to help with a reading - merely to move it along.

cheers,

Sean

When doing a tarot reading i use the accepted meaning of the cards as a starting point. The tarot cards act almost as a crib. It's like having a list of barnum-esque statements in front of you and randomly generating several of them.

Depending on the length of the reading and the reaction of the sitter, I may expand upon the tarot card's meanings, or introduce some other elements of cold/hot reading. I may also introduce my own intuition. Shock horror.

You have to think on your feet, use what you need at that particular moment, and not be too fixed in what your "routine" is or isn't going to include.

There's a book that explains all this. Now, who's it by? Erm. Oh yes. I can see a big blue box below. There is yellow writing. Click on it. Click on the big blue box below. Click, I say, click...

I must start talking more simplier.

For me, the cards are the ultimate crib sheet to the Tarot. Each detail of a card is is symbolic of a concept. I describe these and ask how they might reflect events, issues or concerns in the spec's life. That's the cold reading part. I let the spec do the donkey work. After all, who knows more about her: her or me? As long as she's safely under the spell of the personal validation fallacy, she'll cough up the goodies but credit the cards.

I guess I'm a bit of a shut eye when I give a tarot reading, I use the hints that the cards are giving and interpret them using my own intuition (which yes I guess some could argue could be a sort of subconscious cold reading).

Each of the cards has it's own meaning, the exact context of that card will change depending on the reading. But the basic idea that the card is putting across is always pretty much the same. For example if the death card comes up then we know we're talking about a change but what exactly is always going to depend on the hints that the other cards are giving. If, say the ace of pentacals was next to it then that could be telling us that a change of job was on the way.

Cold reading could be used, yes but I really believe that the cards give more than enough information when you know what you're looking at for there to be no real need for it.

Mr_Grue wrote:I must start talking more simplier.

Simple talk is good.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I guess I'm a bit of a shut eye when I give a tarot reading, I use the hints that the cards are giving and interpret them using my own intuition (which yes I guess some could argue could be a sort of subconscious cold reading).

*snip*

Cold reading could be used, yes but I really believe that the cards give more than enough information when you know what you're looking at for there to be no real need for it.

So yes that process of interpreting based on intuition is in fact a form of cold reading. It's also important to note that the cards themselves are essentially custom made Barnum statements.


Lady of Mystery did so right near the end, "We know we are talking about change but what change." That is an open ended Barnum postulate if I've ever heard one.

I recently came across the same concept with Apples to Apples (A board/card game in the US) where I realized if you just change the rules you have open ended improv card topics.

It's like as someone else said a crib sheet for improv.

--Infy