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Eshly, sorry I don't mean to sound mean but how much experience do you have? There are many many ways that something can be forced that will look like a total free choice and yes it can even appear that they just named the something out of their head. I wonder if perhaps you need to do a little more reading around the subject and and then get out and try these methods out to see just how effective they can be.

if you're using a sven, you dont have to handle them at all...

if you're using a sven, does it have to be playing cards?

do you have to do it on the stage right there and then?

where else and when else could you do this, and why?

how could you switch in a sven deck of some kind, when everyone has seen you gather up pieces of card?

all these things and more...not an attack, not having a go, just thinking out loud...

and no i am not suggesting that you use a sven deck for anything...these are just examples that you may or may not want to consider...

Lady of Mystery wrote:Eshly, sorry I don't mean to sound mean but how much experience do you have? There are many many ways that something can be forced that will look like a total free choice and yes it can even appear that they just named the something out of their head. I wonder if perhaps you need to do a little more reading around the subject and and then get out and try these methods out to see just how effective they can be.

Its ok Lady of Mystery, I do not have much experiance. Unless you are talking about pre-show or about group forces, such as the "37" force or so on, I cannot think of any "out of your head, completely free choice" force.

Any examples/suggestions?

(that reminds me, just bought Psychological Sublties 3 )

IAIN wrote:if you're using a sven, you dont have to handle them at all...

if you're using a sven, does it have to be playing cards?

do you have to do it on the stage right there and then?

where else and when else could you do this, and why?

how could you switch in a sven deck of some kind, when everyone has seen you gather up pieces of card?

all these things and more...not an attack, not having a go, just thinking out loud...

and no i am not suggesting that you use a sven deck for anything...these are just examples that you may or may not want to consider...

I do actually use a sven style deck, made of large bits of cardboard with the names of newspapers on. I slowly riffle though and say "stop" in different tones of voice, and wait for a spectator to agree with me on which one to stop at - the idea is he is listening for commands in my voice.

Its probably the weakest part of my whole routine, but I think it will work.

The point of what I said was to make it 'appear' that they came up with it off the top of their head although if you had a psychological force that you were confident enough to use as a closer then by all means do.

Yes, preshow is very good but there are plenty of other methods too. Think laterally, Corinda and Annemann have both got more than enough in for you but you might need to think around it to make it work for you. I watched Get Nyman the other day and he's got some great ideas that you might be able to use.

Do you know what, this little discussion has just given me an idea for a totally new use for a donkey's years old idea

Care to share? xD

I can honestly say that I do not know of any force that looks as "clean" as randomly asking someone to think of a word. Indeed, the final trick of my show (which lasts only 20 seconds) is doing exactly that and the word being written in an envelope hanging from a clip.

Perhaps I will try and find the Get Nyman dvd, the man is quite the genius.

Lady of Mystery wrote:Do you know what, this little discussion has just given me an idea for a totally new use for a donkey's ears

I love editing quotes...

Goony my darling, you've got a kick in the shins coming your way if you're not very careful

Ok Eshly, here's a little thought seed for you... does the rest of the audience have to know about everything that happens between you and your chosen spec? And I'm not talking about preshow. Think on that's and that's just one idea of the many that are out there.

Forces that don't look like forces? Any force you do well.
Switches that don't look like switches? Any switch you do well.

I'm not a mentalist guy, (I think that particular brand of magic is boring because for the most part it is done really badly unless your talking magic/mentalism) but fear not I have some examples.

One ahead force, (one off) great for mentalism
Psychological stop
classic force
Riffle force
Magicians choice
cross cut force
Change bag or any other such switching device, (yes still a force)
Any book test, (yes most of these are forces)

True some of the above are card forces, but they can for the most part be adapted. Also any force out of books like '202 Methods of forcing' or Corinda.

I don't think you are ever going to be satisfied until you do the following two things.

A) Get a lot more experience performing under your belt. This doesn't have to be stage or anything grand, just get out there and do some tricks for friends family, (worst possible audiences but at least its experience) or anybody that you can find.

B) Stop looking at everything from your perspective. I know you think you are looking at it from the audiences perspective but your comments show that you are indeed looking at things from a performers perspective, (it will all come in time).

C) Relax and enjoy bringing magic to others, it doesn't have to be perfect you will never account for every situation. Routining, style, flow, and even a little bit of that elusive perfection will come with time, performance and practice.

Now go pick up that svengali deck, ID, Scotch and soda (the trick not the drink) some sponge balls and have a blast.

Did I say two things? Okay I meant 3, see doesn't always have to be perfect.

Speaking entirely for myself, I'd be reluctant to use a book test as a closer. It just doesn't have that "wow" energy factor for a big finish. And I speak as someone who loves book tests!

And before you say "Derren did it with newspapers", think again. The word revelation wasn't the finale of the show.

If you're dead set on using a book test, how about seeing it as a lead-in to something bigger and flashier? For instance... The spectator selects a page number and word, and you divine the word he's thinking of. Then you use this word and page number as the starting point for our own Iain's Addaconfabula (from The Beautiful Lie), in which a "path" is traced out through an array of envelopes. There's a lot of scope here to make it big, showy, and full of energy, and also to hark back over the high points of the show. At the end of Addaconfabula, you have a few envelopes left unopened. You turn these over, and they spell out the word from the book test! This turns your divination into a prediction and ties the two effects together rather neatly.

thank you robbie...

but i don't want Elshy to buy my last (or any) book...

Addaconfabula won't appeal to him, cos its not perfect...

Robbie wrote:Speaking entirely for myself, I'd be reluctant to use a book test as a closer. It just doesn't have that "wow" energy factor for a big finish. And I speak as someone who loves book tests!

And before you say "Derren did it with newspapers", think again. The word revelation wasn't the finale of the show.

If you're dead set on using a book test, how about seeing it as a lead-in to something bigger and flashier? For instance... The spectator selects a page number and word, and you divine the word he's thinking of. Then you use this word and page number as the starting point for our own Iain's Addaconfabula (from The Beautiful Lie), in which a "path" is traced out through an array of envelopes. There's a lot of scope here to make it big, showy, and full of energy, and also to hark back over the high points of the show. At the end of Addaconfabula, you have a few envelopes left unopened. You turn these over, and they spell out the word from the book test! This turns your divination into a prediction and ties the two effects together rather neatly.

You may be right, it does not exactly have excitement behind it does it? To be honest you're idea sounds much better, but I didn't understand what you meant to be honest

(yes, I'm a newbie, please don't hate me )


Ideas strong enough to close a show:

Russian Roulette routine of mine (its foolproof, so I can bet £200 on it)
Q&A (probably way beyond me)
Prediction of some sort


Any other ideas? I fear Robbie has a good point, a book test may indeed not be a good closer :p

Eshly wrote:
(yes, I'm a newbie, please don't hate me )

Now I'm confused. If you're a newbie, why are you planning a stage show? Why not start with a little close-up with friends and family? Build up your experience, confidence & knowledge? Otherwise I fear for your show Eshly, I really do.

And, if you were to spend as much time reading books and/or watching DVD's as you do posting on TalkMagic, you wouldn't have to keep posting on TalkMagic. If that makes sense...