talkmagic.co.uk

Wow. I predict lots of conversation. But its really over nothing significant. Use the best method available to you, within reason. It's common sense. Use the best presentation you can and don't bore people with stuff they don't know or care about.
It is as simple as that.
Do NOT worry about magicians. If you can fool 'em, great. But paying ANY attention to that portion in your audience always takes attention away from the real audience. The real audience is not made up of people who care about weather you use the dribble or riffle force. Of course, I am sure most magicians will agree with this assesment; but as Corinda highlighted, magician's have the inclination to be very hypocritical. I know personally, that I am often tempted to make improvements to a method which I know only a magician would appreciate. I think it is something to do with the whole ego situation amongst magicians, but its something which I reckon is probably fairly natural. BUT If you want to actually make an impact on your real audience, then you have to drop hypocracy and force yourself to act upon your reason. Derren did it. But remember Derren is just one exemplar.

I'll not make a habit of this, but seeing as its somehow still relevant, Stanislavski actually commented on this.

Now I will show you what should never happen onstage but which unfortunatley, almost always does with the vast majority of actors. I will show you what almost always occupies actors' attention when they are out there on stage- a ferocious critic.

I would say that any magician worth a damn, when watching another magician, isn't thinking "how's it done" but "how's it presented". That's where the real meat and pleasure lies.

If they were to comment on a performance after the event, I'd rather hear from an actor about acting method than a magician about magical method.

Magicians are part of your audiance too.

They may be 5% of your audiance if your selling tickets to a show, possibly even more. Because thats the way things are.

Either way, just because they are magicians doesn't mean their views don't matter. I know if I saw someone perform the Berglas Effect but touched the deck, I wouldn't be so impressed. If they did the effect hands off I'd be totally amazed.


SOME spectators might not see the difference (though some might), but magicians will, aswell as those sceptics. So I say that you should please them and do what you can to add to the effect; such as make it "hands off".

I no longer perform any effects where I touch the cards, at any point. It becomes SLIGHTLY more magical that way... maybe not to everyone, but to the magical and the sceptical.


Tom
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I don't think for a minute that a fellow magician's opinion on my act doesn't matter.
It's just not as important as an actor's (or at least a magician who wants to discuss the acting involved). To me at least.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I purchase a new effect, that's the first bit I read, 'The Effect' - then I sit and wonder about presentation for a while. Then I read that boring bit 'The Method' ..... which gives me some more ideas about presentation

It becomes SLIGHTLY more magical that way... maybe not to everyone, but to the magical and the sceptical

The sceptic will just come up with a new (and no doubt hilarious in many circumstances) explanation in his/her head as to how you did it. Many a sceptic go along to a Derren show for example (I'm using him as an example as I think you might've hear of him ), as a partner of a fan. They don't come away as anything other than when they arrived. Sceptic. Without wanting to question your ability, if Derren isn't converting them, you sure as hell ain't.

You shouldn't worry about entertaining magicians, because when it comes down to it. Most Magicians can be fooled by the simplest of things.

Just ask Juan Tamariz and Michael Weber. Both have used extremely simply and easy effects, and have also completely blown away magicians. Those same effects were also performed for Lay people as well.

Or better yet, talk to Dean Dill about Blizzard. It's an effect that fools Magicians AND Lay people as well. Both of them see the effect for it's presentation.

Another thing is that you are going to make money doing this, you have to realize that magicians aren't the ones who are going to be hiring you or paying you. Regular people will, if there happens to be a magician in the audience. So what, he'll most likely sit and enjoy the show for what it is and keep his mouth shut.

Eshly wrote:Magicians are part of your audiance too.

SOME spectators might not see the difference (though some might), but magicians will, aswell as those sceptics. So I say that you should please them and do what you can to add to the effect; such as make it "hands off".

I no longer perform any effects where I touch the cards, at any point. It becomes SLIGHTLY more magical that way... maybe not to everyone, but to the magical and the sceptical.

Derren Brown attracts his fair share of magicians to his shows

I was one of them on more than one occasion

On both occasions I recognised how he did at least one trick

Oh my god

I didn't care.

On a completely related note, I'll hopefully be going to watch him on his next tour too. For two reasons. I like his shows (they're entertaining and witty and I like his style) and for a second reason, which a wise bloke once said:

Mr_Grue wrote:I would say that any magician worth a damn, when watching another magician, isn't thinking "how's it done" but "how's it presented". That's where the real meat and pleasure lies.

Go ahead and spend time improving your magic. Please do, you'll be all the better for it. Teller wouldn't be as good as he is if he didn't spend hour after hour on one simple trick

But improve the presentation. The method doesn't matter.

Forgot to mention one thing, the completely hands off approach to something is good, but it also falls under the "Too Perfect" theory. Meaning that if the work was done before you did anything. Some spectators will have it in the back of their minds that you used a gimmick, and some might be inclined to question you about. Spectators know about things like a stacked deck and all that stuff. So don't fool yourself into thinking that it will instantly fool them.

The other thing is that when you perform, You are supposed to look like you had a hand in what happened.

I do. Trust me.

I use a special force to force, with no equivoque or "SR style force" one of 6 cards in the deck. Its a verbal proceedure, so it looks like I'm subliminally guiding them, giving them apparantly non-free-"free"-choices, if that makes any sense.

The Hands off Brainwave is much better than the origional version, but it does have its disadvantages, for example they could NOT just name any card they liked.

But then again, in a way THAT is "too perfect" too. I like the "selection process" that I have, as it looks so much like how real subliminal messaging would work. If you just say "Think of a card" and get it right straight away, it looks a lot more like a switch, trick or cheat.


Tom
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Eshly wrote:I do. Trust me.

But then again, in a way THAT is "too perfect" too. I like the "selection process" that I have, as it looks so much like how real subliminal messaging would work. If you just say "Think of a card" and get it right straight away, it looks a lot more like a switch, trick or cheat.


Tom
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Have you ever tried performing with an I.D? Because this right here shows me you haven't. In fact, I don't see how they could see it has a switch, cheat or whatever. Hell you could even mix it up a bit and have them think of a card, then forget it, then think of another card, then forget that one, then think of a final card. Then you reveal that final card is reversed in the deck. It's same exact method, just presented completely differently.

Randy wrote:

Eshly wrote:I do. Trust me.

But then again, in a way THAT is "too perfect" too. I like the "selection process" that I have, as it looks so much like how real subliminal messaging would work. If you just say "Think of a card" and get it right straight away, it looks a lot more like a switch, trick or cheat.


Tom
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Have you ever tried performing with an I.D? Because this right here shows me you haven't. In fact, I don't see how they could see it has a switch, cheat or whatever. Hell you could even mix it up a bit and have them think of a card, then forget it, then think of another card, then forget that one, then think of a final card. Then you reveal that final card is reversed in the deck. It's same exact method, just presented completely differently.

Actually you just described my EXACT demonstraition of my ID performance. So yeh I have performed ID. But it makes me happy, it looks better, and it convinces more people (or annoys the UNconvincable sceptics) if I do a hands off brainwave instead

Tom
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Eshly wrote:If you just say "Think of a card" and get it right straight away, it looks a lot more like a switch, trick or cheat.

Do a favour for me

Tonight, dig out your ID. Not your special "can be seen from the bottom but it needs an index" ID. Just an ordinary ID

Be brave and put it into Paul Brook's order. I dare ya. It'll save on the mental arithmetic

Tomorrow go and find a punter and do the trick. Exactly as you described. Ask them to name a card (perhaps get them to change it a few times) then show the one reversed card

Don't touch that card. Let them take it

Really. Let them take it. That's right. Let them handle a card that's been gaffed up to its eyeballs

In the offbeat of them looking at the card and picking up their jaw off the ground, replace the top half on the bottom. Take the card off them, put it on the bottom of the deck faced up. Flash the bottom subtlety as you replace the deck in its box. DO NOT call attention to the bottom card

Come back and tell me how you got on. If they weren't gobsmacked I'll be very surprised

Randy wrote:Hell you could even mix it up a bit and have them think of a card, then forget it, then think of another card, then forget that one, then think of a final card. Then you reveal that final card is reversed in the deck. It's same exact method, just presented completely differently.

Haha, I do love the ID, I really do.. even if it is only for friends and down the pub. I always (try to) get them to change their mind, people seem to love that. And of course, occasionally you get lucky and can show TWO cards overturned. Sweet.

Kolm, I have done that. I performed that routine hundreds of times, because the ID is a killer!

But it makes me happy to use a hands off deck instead, because it looks less like a magician is performing, because we all associate the image of a guy fanning cards with magic, not Mentalism.


Tom
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Eshly wrote:Kolm, I have done that. I performed that routine hundreds of times, because the ID is a killer!

But it makes me happy to use a hands off deck instead, because it looks less like a magician is performing, because we all associate the image of a guy fanning cards with magic, not Mentalism.


Tom
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Mentalists fan cards too. And really who "fans" the cards. You are just going through the cards in a standard "pick a card" like manner in the hands. It looks completely normal and natural for anybody to do. Hell even NON magicians do it as well.