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I was thinking about this all night so I thought I would get your opinion on it.

I noticed another person had published another idea. I later on started to re-read Hiding the Elephant and it struck me...why do people feel the need to publish their handlings and ideas within a few months of performing or concieving them?

I thought Magic was about secrets.
If I were to come up with a revolutionary new way of reading a billet, or switching an envelope etc, I'd keep my mouth shut!

Just like the old illusionists, surely the idea is to protect your secrets and use them to entertain your own clients?

I had an interesting conversation with Greedoniz recently where we agreed that the main reason we would ever publish our work was if we were asked. If the Magic community were so desperate to understand and effect or technique, then perhaps after using it to it's fullest, I would consider selling it.
It seems like now, Magicians are performing just so they can come up with justification as to why they can sell ebooks and techniques.

I'm not knocking anybody whatsoever for selling their ideas, that's their choice.
I'm just wondering the general opinion on why so many people are eager to sell their ideas so quickly and too such a wide audience.

They do it:

1. To make money
Or more likely...
2. To gain reputation in the magical community

In the old days it did seem that magicians would only release their secrets after performing them for decades and when they were at the end of their careers.

Nowadays it seems to be the general opinion that as soon as you have a new idea or move you release it straight away.

The main reason I believe is the communications and computer age we live in. To get noticed in this day and age as a magician it is believed you must produce a DVD or a video. And so if you think of a new trick or move you quickly consign it to video form in the hope of getting noticed and getting more work.

Ironically there are plenty of people out there publishing new effects and moves out there on video (as in Youtube) or DVD's that probably have never been performed to a layman, because the performer is so keen to stamp their move in digital form.

In short, in my opinion, it's a belief that the performer will gain instant money and noteriety if he releases a new move/trick effect very quickly.

well, speaking as someone who has released stuff, here's my own view...

a) in the process of researching/testing effects, you send them out to people far more knowledgeable than yourself
b) they encourage, or discourage you - dependant on what they think of your work
c) one of the questions you have to ask yourself - will i continue to use this effect/presentation personally?
d) other people have said - "i really like this move, or that presentation - can i use it?"
e) its going to lay there, dormant, useless to you, and everyone else because you've moved on
f) you think that what you've come up with, may help someone else

it all depends on your own view - if you're gigging corporately, making good money and only performing the same 8 effects...then anything else you've come up with, will sit there, or they could release it and make a little money...

here's the bottom line though - if you are not 'known', then you will never make any real money from it...no matter how good it is. you need endorsements of some kind - be it via promos and sold via a big brand shop (like alakazam for example)...or the quotes from well respected people within the community...

my reasons for releasing what i have, was mainly for fun, and encouragement from others...certainly didnt do it to build a brand, or get known internet-wise, so to speak...look on here, how often do i mention my stuff on here? very, very rarely...

its funny, i know a couple of people who think i've never even performed and sit in an armchair all day pontificating, though they're entitled to those opinions, they are wrong - and i've always been very open and honest about my experiences performing...i know what works for me, and i stick to it - and its within those confines that the few devices and envelopes i've designed, thats where they've sprung from...

i should also mention, that last year, two of my books got into Jheff's Marketplace of the Mind Top 50 mentalism releases of 2009. And he also gave me a 'spotlight' edition of his magazine too - interview and so on...

so i know that some people, those i've shared stuff with, and asked for brutal feedback in return - they've done so, with good faith and mutual resepect...

and all of that, builds your confidence within yourself. "who would want to listen to me? why MY ideas?" - well, in some respects...why not?

many a good idea has been had by an amateur, and many a good idea has been ruined by one too...

its a personal choice what to release, what 'version' you release, and why you release...mine are-

don't use the presentations anymore
the inventions/envelopes/whatever else i still do, but i feel they may be handy to other people in some way
the pride/fun of writing it all, designing the cover and being safe in the knowledge that if no one buys it, at least i have a nice copy for my own pleasure

if anyone releases anything to make big money, unless you're a full-time pro, a group of 'followers/fans' and a 'brand' - then you'll be in for a sad surprise...

release it cos you believe in the stuff, and for the love of it all...

no one is being forced to buy it after all...

i suppose the difference is between 'then' and now - is that most acts could perform the same 5-12 presentations in shows across the world and make a fortune - why sell it to the competition....makes no financial sense...

but these days, things have changed, there's far more bar work, small parties, events and other such work...sure, the big timers who only work stage will still not release their work until they retire - but anything else? not so much...

my opinion only...

I was thinking about this all night so I thought I would get your opinion on it.

I noticed another person had published another idea. I later on started to re-read Hiding the Elephant and it struck me...why do people feel the need to publish their handlings and ideas within a few months of performing or concieving them?

ANSWER: 99% of them do it as the result of ego and the ease by which one can now get published.

I thought Magic was about secrets.
If I were to come up with a revolutionary new way of reading a billet, or switching an envelope etc, I'd keep my mouth shut!

Which is how it USED TO BE…
…In the past a performer would use the methods he/she came up with for at least a half-dozen years or more (frequently their entire career) before introducing them to the general fraternity even though they may share certain things with a select few. The exception to this rule would be those bits they knew they’d never use in a series act that would become contributions to the key magazines of the day or else go into a commercial tome as either a contribution to a collection, such as Robert Nelson was known to produce, or else their own little compilation of ideas. Even at that, such material was frequently organized in a manner so as to TEACH the reader more than a handful of tricks most of the time, even though we find materials to the contrary as well, much of it seen as “low end” or “elementary’ even though you can find some solid gems between said covers.

Just like the old illusionists, surely the idea is to protect your secrets and use them to entertain your own clients?

This is a view that involved far more than grand illusion and even more than magic itself. Did you know that the formula for making the famed Tornado in the original Wizard of Oz film was an industry secret for over 40 years? Even the Parting of the Red Sea in the 10 Commandments film was something heavily guarded for decades.

Within magic/Mentalism you will find a handful of methods that have known exceptional “protection” such as how certain Code work was done, the hook-up to the Blackstone Floating Light (and I mean the real one, not the published version), how the Thurston Sawing actually worked vs. what most believe… the list goes on and on, many of these things still known to but a handful of key individuals, so the “romantic notion” around keeping things secret still exists, there’s just less of it.

Personally, I think much of what has been produced in the past decade shouldn’t have been (especially all the eBooks) in that it’s both, incomplete and improperly researched/developed.

Over the past few days I started re-reading some material that came out a few years back and in so doing, started seeing the glaring holes within it that I didn’t notice the first time through. Unfortunately many writers but especially creative minds get too close to an idea and can’t see such holes or limitations as the case were…. But I’ll speak more on this shortly…

I had an interesting conversation with Greedoniz recently where we agreed that the main reason we would ever publish our work was if we were asked. If the Magic community were so desperate to understand and effect or technique, then perhaps after using it to it's fullest, I would consider selling it.

This is EXACTLY how it used to be.

I remember all the clamor at the Magic Castle long ago when Shimada finally decided to share all of his secrets to the Dove Act, including the legendary Dove on Cane appearance. Secrets that had been his exclusive for decades – that took him to FISM and countless other awards were finally getting published… after decades of groveling and arguing by the magic fraternity when it came to “theories” as to how he accomplished this, that and the other thing…

More recently we have The Thurston Book which tips a good chunk of the actual workings of some of the most famous illusions in magic history (though certain things were still omitted on purpose).

When you have your fellows clamoring over your material and trying to bribe you for the secret, then you know you have something worth HOLDING ON TO not something you should exploit while the iron is hot. Make them hungry.. .make them beg and then you will be able to sell your hard work for 30% more… or so goes the story.

1. To make money
Or more likely...
2. To gain reputation in the magical community

Both of which are a combination of myth, misplaced logic, and a matter of ego-feeding.

First off, very, very, very few writers actually make significant money off their work… especially if they go the route of being legitimately published vs. self-publishing and/or the popularized eBook route. Truth of the matter is 90% or more of what is now in circulation wouldn’t have been accepted by a legit publishing source… at least not until a great deal of re-write and research came along with it.

As to the second suggestion… well that “reputation” thing can go two ways and in the case of the plethora of egos pooping out eBooks, I can promise you that the reputation element can bite you in the butt really fast; produce poor work that hasn’t been properly researched and smoothed out and you will end up with mud on your face. Do this sort of thing regularly and you end up becoming a scorned resource.

Let me give you an example; there is one writer that has sold himself as being an expert on everything to do with Mentalism it seems and yet the majority of dealers who’ve carried his books haven’t only had to run steep price reductions to get rid of said inventory, they’ve had to deal with very upset customers complaining about that material, the price asked for it, etc. Long story short, the dealers had to give refunds and the author became seen as the sort no one wanted to deal with on any level.

The other way the “reputation” thing can back fire is how you are seen on the public/industry front lines. There are those that shoot themselves in the foot because the subtle success of their first book or two goes to their head and they become cocky when on the forums. Then you have the Forum Stars or what I refer to as “E-leberties” in one of my older VISIONS articles; people that have been endeared by the members of one particular forum (frequently the Café but there are others) and seen to walk on water. While known and popular in that arena they are far from knowing such repute in general, stepping outside their safe zone with… let’s call it “Brown Nose Tactics” in which they become deluded over the fact that some noted pro patted them on the back and said nice things about their contribution…

NEWS FLASH… most pros will do this or find a creative way by which to say things that sound flattering but aren’t. There are exceptions to this of course, but one must understand the ins & outs of the political side of the trade in this case. Kudos are cheap, the proof however, comes over time and how the pudding ultimately sets up.

I Fully Agree, we’ve become far too liberal with our secrets and for the wrong reasons. I’ve written about this frequently over the past ten or so years, partly due to the influences I had in my younger days and how those old timers went “overboard” in protecting secrets (especially the subtleties).

Anyone who thinks magic is mainly about secrets would take a piano apart to find the music.

Eshly wrote:They do it:

1. To make money
Or more likely...
2. To gain reputation in the magical community

ER....No.

nobody ever got rich by publishing a magic book.

And nobody is likely to buy a book, unless they know something about the writer first.

Forget the word secrets for a second ..

This is supposed to be a brotherhood, in which we share methods and thoughts on the performance of magic.

we share these thoughts in a number of different ways.. sometimes at the bar at a convention, sometimes, at a lecture, sometimes by publishing a book, and we share them for two reasons.

one.. your proud of your idea, It's your baby, and you want to show the photos around.

or 2, Its a germ of an idea, that you personaly might not use, but somebody else could.

or 3....I have to share my stuff, because if i didnt, my head would explode, because it became too full.


I can think of no industry or business that doesn't share "secrets" . All knowledge is shared within its community, in a need to know basis..
be it chemists, computer geeks, or artisans.

As magicians however, we tend to be vocal about how we have to guard our trade secrets..

which has created the myth that the method is where the magic is made.

whereas, we know otherwise, and that the presentation is key.

Well, that's the glib cliches like "99%" and other cynical nonsense out of the way.

Magic is a massive global industry. There's always room for the cottage side of that industry, but let's get one thing absolutely straight. There's nothing cynical or egotistical about being proud enough to sell something you've created. As Dale said, magic is a brotherhood. Demand for techniques amongst the brotherhood means that those techniques have value. Where value exists, you'll find trade. Why on Earth wouldn't you? Easier routes to market are just a confirmation of supply-side economics at work.

I'm just amazed I was involved in an interesting conversation.

If you are a creative sort more than a performer then to get your ideas out in the field so to speak is your number one concern.

As a performer and worker though if you have come up with routines and effects that are of your own design then surely one should wish to keep then for yourself to have that unique selling point to clients as the guy who does that "insert unique effect name here"?

For me a reputation amongst magicians is both useless and of no concern as my entire focus is for the spectators I am performing for and am puzzled to why it should be any other way (apart from knowing other pros who can phone you if they need another pro at an event to help out)

Not that I ever come up with something totaly unique but I certainly wouldn't release it unless:
1) I had either finished with it and moved on to new material, had enough of such items to do a book/dvd and had been asked by people to do so

or

2) Could make lots of money and brag about it

Also a good thing is that being a Tm forum member and releasing an effect guarantees you a great review!

P.S The legendary greedoniz ring rope routine is available for £10 to all

This is a can of worms.

Ignoring the fact that the premise is wrong, (magic is not about secrets, it is about entertaining) The piano is not about the music, the table is not about the hammer. These are tools in which to create the magic. The magic is in the spectators mind. Your job is to put it there.

There are lots of reasons to publish and name recognition amoung peers is one of them, but I agree in most cases this is really ego. There are a few however that made the best part of their living creating for magicians and going to conventions, giving lectures, etc. Surprisingly, (or maybe not) some of these same people make a great deal of money as comedians. Some are writing tv programs or at least part of a writing team for tv, others make money giving technical advice for the movie industry. But they are not making much money as performing magicians.

I think the problem arises (if it is a problem) when anyone who thinks they have an original idea can publish it in one form or another. Despite the fact that the quality of the work is not the best

The hobbiest is what drives the industry, the hobbiest wants what they believe to be new and innovative, it doesn't matter if it was really published 45yrs ago, (they don't know any different). So it is created. Basic business principals, create the need and sell the product. Magic business is business.

There is nothing wrong with publishing your work. Just make sure it is yours. Make sure you do it properly, with some dignity, with some respect to you and the art. To the real creators who are willing to share I am always on their side. They work darn hard to create, some it is for ego, (perhaps they wouldn't do it if it wasn't for ego) but does that matter? We perform for ego, why not create for it. As long as that is not the only reason, because if it is, chances are what you publish is going to suck.

If nobody published anything, how would magic move forward? Everything that's out there and everything that we come up with is built on the ideas the other magicians have published for us in the past. As the saying goes, we're standing on the shoulders of giants. Where would be be if Annemann hadn't decided to publish the Jinx?

I've never published anything myself but have worked closely with people who have and had some of my ideas included in a couple of works. I don't think it's fair to say it's about ego or the desire to make money in every case and it's fairly offensive to imply that's a driving force. In all the books that I've been involved in it was more about an idea that the creator was proud of and wanted to share with the world rather than anything else. And I do also know that research was done and the opinions of others was sought before anything was published.

well, who should we ask permission to publish beforehand then? should we consult with amateurs?

no one gets asked to publish something, people may ask if you're going to release something...but there's no "you are cordially invited to publish your pen through stoat routine"...

you publish something because you (and hopefully others) think its worthwhile to, and may help or inspire others with a mixture of methods or presentational angles they may not have seen before...

actually - here's something to consider, i know of someone who is alledgedly very clumsy when it comes to performing - but has a great brain and has even consulted for tv stuff...people have said "i was so dissapointed when so-and-so performed...it was all a bit underwhelming...", but their stuff is sh1t-hot and works..."

and certainly not something they'd performed for years and years...so...

to play devil's advocate - part of me wants to say "what right have you to dictate what these rules of publishing are"?

the other thing on my mind is, if you do send your work off to a few pro's, and you get good feedback (real honest good feedback - not, 'this book is very well bound')...and you publish - you'll still get some @rsehole saying "yeah well, you know them...course you'll get good feedback..."

so, sometimes, its a lose-lose situation...dont get it looked at, you are reckless and feckless...get it looked at, its favouritism and oportunistic...

i wonder why anyone publishes anything at all these days with that attitude...

so maybe, the real answer is - you don't have to buy these things, or maybe buy them and then give them a rotten review if that'll make you feel better...

EDIT - i blame the hypnotists

I thought magic was about entertaining people, not secrets.

As you know, I'm a web developer by trade. I have an interest in writing/publishing articles, be it in print or on a blog

Most of what I write goes on my personal blog, but I've also submitted (and had printed) one article on a popular industry blog (I mostly lack time to do the research and write the required number of words after I've done my real daytime job)

I didn't get paid for it
I used a penname

So if it wasn't for money or fame/recognition, why did I spent my free time writing down what was useful knowledge that working web developers could take away and earn money from? (Hense effectively stealing potential income from me)

Because I wanted to give back. I came across this knowledge during my day job, and it would be useful to many people both now and in the future. I spent years upon years taking from The Internet, it was about time I gave back. And I admit it - it was nice to hear all the positive feedback once it was out there

There's absolutely no way I could've used this knowledge to its full potential. There's a whole industry out there, who could use this knowledge for their own clients. And who knows - people could have read the article, taken it on board, and built on it and done stuff I didn't even realise with it

Would I have taken payment if offered? Of course I would. I'd have been stupid not to. But giving something back and gaining experience submitting articles for publication on popular industry blogs was enough for me. And that's why the blog owner accepted it - he publishes posts by up and coming writers, to give exposure and experience

There is clearly a lot of money to be made from selling the latest trick that has just been featured on some television show. There are some complete mugs who are quite happy to pay £40, £50, sometimes £100 for some latest fashionable trick. If you are selling that package across Europe and America there's a quick few pounds to be had before people start to work out the tricks for themselves.

Selling your soul is sometimes more lucrative than working hard at what you do and prospering at that.