derren brown - has he the right?

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Postby SamGurney » Sep 22nd, '10, 00:34



(That's why I put 'Allegorical'. I am not the trekkie type who seems to start each scentence with 'well.. technically' :shock: )

I shall rephrase what I was saying..

On the night I was watching Derren's show I came on here believing that what I had just seen was a piece of Art and that the fact mentalism was its medium was completley unimportant. For various reasons, I was able to watch the show as a lay-man, not once throughout the show was I speculating about method nor did it even cross my mind ( :!: ) as I was so enthralled by the subtle cinemagraphic artistly at play in the show. Contrary to feeling restricted or blinded, having that experiece of watching something through the average Derren-fan's eyes, I felt liberated as though a veil had been lifted which revealed to me a perspective often clouded by method and things which magician's place high value on but which, in reality, have little significance to the eyes of the real audience.

Instead, I saw lots of insipid comments about method and how it had failed spectacularly... according to the things which magician's value, it is imporant to add. Having watched the show with 'lay people' who connected with the vaugley philosophical issues in the show, I had seen how meaningless these values were in actuality.

I am not saying the show was perfect or without issue. Nor am I saying it completley enlightened me to a new mystical world; but enlightenment is merley becoming concious of something which had previously remained peripheral or perhaps innocuous, but always latent beneath the incumbent sophistry and delusions we convince ourselves are important.

Perhaps this was an opportunity for Mentalists to realise that create Magic is not about having your side steal nailed perfectly or about making everyone laugh every two seconds and to realise that we have beneath the facade of what we think is important an opportunity to produce Art.

I shall not essay about how and why Art is significant, but there is no doubting that it is. To call magic an Art, as it often is, is meaningless if you never stop and look indifferently at what it is you actually do and ask yourself if it is Art? Will it provide people with enough emotional discord to force them into reckoning with a different world view? There are many more questions about Art that could be asked and there is no comittee which decides these things or no thread which will provide an answer. You have to think.

But... 'It was a stooge!! Where was the mentalism!! There was no side steal!!' :roll: :roll:

And that was my point. Bob Marley held no degree or 'expertise' and yet he propagated important life messages. The fact is that no degree or amount of 'expertise' allows you to decide the important questions of how to live life. If there was an answer which someone which only took a degree in psychology to learn, then we would have resolved one of- if not the- greatest philosophical question which has plauged human thinking from Aristotle and much further beyond, right until the present day Goatee donning Mentalists. Unfortunatley, the question is still unanswered.

Derren was not specifically 'psychiatrising' this one man, he was quite explicitly talking to his audience about their own lives. I just don't understand which part of the message of 'Live life. Take opportunites. Have confidence e.t.c.' you object to. If he was attempting to regress someone with latent schizophrenia to resolve their several complexes and fixations then I would understand why it would be quite silly of Derren to go meddling there for the sake of entertainment. Until then, it was and is Art.

Last edited by SamGurney on Sep 22nd, '10, 00:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nameless » Sep 22nd, '10, 00:36

Speaking of double standards, it was a bit odd to hear Captain Athiest say the guy's life was a 'miracle' on more than one occasion during the show. Hmmm ....

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Postby kolm » Sep 22nd, '10, 00:41

themagicwand wrote:Perhaps Derren assumed that the guy wanted a better life. But then assumption is a dangerous thing, and who are we (who is Derren) to assume that we/he knows what is best for someone? Perhaps the poor guy was actually quite happy living at home with his mum and g/f. If he'd really wanted change, perhaps he would have sought change out for himself.

From what I'm reading from Derren's blogging and tweeting, Matt is as happy as ever (if not happier) and was elated shortly afterwards watching the show

You're forgetting that Matt wasn't forced to do anything. Everything he did was completely his choice. He choice to look into moving house, he choose to look into his ambition of being a policeman. It's a side effect of the extra confidence that he gave himself

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Postby Robbie » Sep 22nd, '10, 00:57

I had much the same thoughts flitting through my head while watching the programme. Glad to know I'm not the only one! Derren did seem to be playing God this time round, with the assumed right to pluck a random individual from the face of the earth and fiddle about with his personality.

Looked at objectively, Matt really did need to sort his life out, get some confidence, and stop being so passive and defeatist. He probably is much happier now and will have a more fulfilled life as a result.

But what right does anyone have to mess about with anyone else's life without express permission? (And signing a TV show waiver doesn't count as permission of this kind.)

None of us is perfect. We all ought to be changed in some way, especially if our lives are looked at from the outside. Where do you draw the line between "X is a unique individual" and "X needs help"? Ethically, it can only be according to whether the person expresses the desire to change.

Of course, we all try to help our friends without the benefit of professional training. We might say something like "you need to stand up for yourself" or "you're wasting your talents in that job". So in a sense we all dabble in other people's lives. But in a situation like that, we aren't assuming any authority, just giving an opinion as an equal, and it's taken as such. Derren's status as a celebrity and his possible multi-session hypnosis of Matt gave him the mantle of authority and made Matt far less able to question or resist his suggestions.

I don't read Derren's blog, so I'm not up on the details of his arguments against psychics. But if his main objection is that they provide counselling without professional qualifications, then you're right, he's knocked the supports out from under that opinion.

Now, if the sequel turns out to reveal that it was all staged just so Derren can set out this very argument, then I take it all back.

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Postby IAIN » Sep 22nd, '10, 01:04

ah, but he didnt quite give himself the confidence, derren was the conduit, the enabler...no derren, no tv show, no opportunity... he would have had to had stumbled through life as we all do at times...

sam - its the double standards really, that he and others claim that people who go to readers are deluded, and that the readers themselves are both deluded and not helping in any way shape or form as they are not properly trained...yet...

well...draw your own conclusions obviously...

as for art, i personally do not see magic or mentalism as art, i hate the term used in conjunction with mentalism in fact...but thats obviously a very personal view... i dont feel that art can be defined, its a personal experience, and it should surpass that definition - and just be experienced purely on varying emotional levels...

its like saying love is only one thing and nothing more in my opinion...

its the problem with modern-art actually, going to galleries and having the artist come out and explain to you what each piece means...makes no sense...what if that piece of "art" makes me feel one way, yet the creator was feeling something else completely? am i wrong to feel what i did?

of course not...whether it was the originators intention, is a moot point...its how i feel about what i've witnessed/experienced that matters...

kolm - no one is forced to take part in derren's shows i agree, free will (not the effect) comes into play, just like some people dont want to visit therapists but feel ok going to readers or even talking to friends about problems...

i will add that its ok if lovely, bearded derren helps someone (despite no qualifications as we know of) to genuinely help that person, but because this person trusted derren, believed in him - and deep down wanted to approach his own situation on some subconcious level...thats why he reached out and went to audtition/take part in the show...

so if its ok for derren to help, despite no training, or qualifications - it seems to me that its a double standard to claim that readers and similar are "just using cold-reading", and are generally scam-artists, and awful, deluded people... the difference seems to be that if you do it on the telly, its ok...

as for the guy being religious, i wonder if the implication now is whether he is now MORE religious, less or the same... maybe on some level him having faith in himself, means more or less faith in a god, regardless of derren's intent...

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Postby SamGurney » Sep 22nd, '10, 01:30

A quick note before I run along.

I agree that if it is Derren's argument about 'qualification' then he is shooting himself in the foot with this show. I think once you start talking to dead people instead of 'leading' someone to throw a random party there is just some difference, but nonetheless it in most ways discredits his own arguments, I know.

On the Arty thingy.. absolutley, nobody can define Art. But it was Art as Derren defined it- due to the fact art is intensly personal. It just happens that my idea of art corresponds to his much much more than it does to that of someone who has drawn 4 red squares on a canvas and sold it for 6 billion quid.

And c'mon! I shall go and lock myself into my straightjacket now again, for fear of writing several pages of waffle about Ethics, free will vs determinism and existentialism... :roll: :P

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Postby Jean » Sep 22nd, '10, 05:56

Firstly I don't think he did anything immoral, but then I admit I am biased.

As for the double standard thing, I'm not sure if he was a hypocrite or not, It's been awhile since I've read his book but I've always understood his moral objection to psychic readers was that they provided answers under false authority. 'You should take this job I have seen it will go well', and I don't think he ever objected to confidences boosting exercises in themselves, just the fact that clients usually have to pay through the nose for something that may or may not help them. (These are his views as I understand them, I'm not starting a fight).

nameless wrote:Speaking of double standards, it was a bit odd to hear Captain Athiest say the guy's life was a 'miracle' on more than one occasion during the show. Hmmm ....


He didn't say that, Dr Manhattan did, who was an Atheist God. I can't quote him directly right now, my computer has a limited space for text. (You should have read the comic anyway).

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Postby Mr_Grue » Sep 22nd, '10, 07:47

What Harry said. Isn't the problem with readers not the service they provide, but the hook they hang it from; that what they say is coming from some outside force? Hero didn't suggest that there was an outside force; Brown asked Matt where he was in his life, where he was dissatisfied, and sought to help him help himself, without calling on ideas about destiny, or astral ordering, or any of that. It seems to me that Brown was at pains throughout the show to make it clear that all he was doing was creating opportunities for Matt, and it was down to Matt to make use of them as he saw fit.

Brown's criticism of NLP is largely down to the pyramid scheme element of it (people train in NLP in order to become NLP trainers), its expense, and its lack of workable techniques. Again, I don't feel these criticism can be lifted and stuck on to Hero. The experience cost Matt next to nothing, consisted of him learning a relatively simple lesson, and seemed to work.

My point about claims was badly put. What I mean is that Brown isn't putting himself forward as a lifestyle coach off of the back of Hero. He took one person, gave them a bit more confidence, a bit more opportunism, and sent him on his way. If Brown speaks out against motivational speakers, then maybe there is a criticism to be had, but he doesn't.

The message of Hero wasn't "I can cure you" it was "cure thyself".

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Postby IAIN » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:03

blimey, i disagree with monsieur grue twice...

third time means my genitals invert... :)

oh they already have...

no, he didnt change himself, derren was the instigator, the enabler, the firestarter, twisted firestarter...no derren, no change...

i'll reduce my argument even further...

derren says that cold-reading, readers and the like are charlatans, are scan-artists and are dabbling in people's lives when they shouldnt...leave it to the qualified science types...i can cite the dawkins interviews about cold-reading as a base example...

so from his actions of "revealling" cold-reading during a tarot reading on the science of scams online show, amongst many other comments we can say that he's none too keen on readers...

don't dabble with people's lives unless you are trained and qualified in such things...

those words and actions mean that even if some readers are well meaning, and are shut-eyes, derren doesnt approve on a moral level...

so, he does a show about empowerment, and uses "various techniques" to help someone help themselves via a somewhat strange and unusual way...lets face it, a therapist would not do what derren did on his show...

but, here's the thing...

its very easy to paint in broad brushstrokes..."all readers are scam artists", "why should you help someone? you're not qualified", "they just use cold reading techniques!"...pah! rubbish!

yet that isnt actually true, not really, not when you look further than your own nose... i fully agree that not everyone should be a reader, and it takes a certain type of person to WANT to be one (yes a deluded one i hear some of you cry - see psychic!). but not all...

some people understand the myriad of beliefs in this world, and some people genuinely are good at listening, and real, true life reading is listening and letting someone experience a situation from different angles for them to take away and consider...

thats the falling of the much maligned "reading" - it doesnt have to be all gypsy earrings, pentagrams and insence...far from it...there are ethics, there are morals within readers, i've spent several months talking to some - and asked all the usual brutally honest questions...and you know what?

not once was it met with agression, but often agreement, understanding and clear explanations...it was a healthy conversation...i cant print any of it cos its in a private/protected mentalism/psychic entertainer forum (before you ask)...

i think it would be lovely that everyone truly loved those they profess they do, to genuinely take care and listen to those same people when they needed to - if we did that, the world would be far warmer and more cuddlesome...its easy to say "i love you", but somewhat different and harder for some people to act, to do, to prove...

so people look for other things, they may be distrustful of therapy, of psychology, of having their "head shrunk" - and again, it would be wonderful for this not to be so, yet it is...so people search and search, look under rocks, hide in closets, climb into the guttering and lay there scratching at their anus and crying...

i dont think those people should be ignored...and if they DO find solace in speaking to a reader, an ethical, moral, thoughtful one - and they feel a release, or gain insight into their problem, and come to their own conclusions with a clearer head than before...then, good for them...

its too easy to say all readers are scam-artists, far too easy...but its not true, and usually, if something IS too easy, then thats usually an indication of something being overlooked...

so yes, should a mentalist be dabbling in someone else's life on tv? well, if they can be fair, even handed and willing to be open minded to other people wanting to do the same, then maybe, yes...

but if they are very vocal about "that lot are scam-artists, liars and crooks", and then do pretty much the same thing, but dress it up as hypnotic techniques, suggestion or whatever else - does that make them an entertainment-friendly crook?

and it also passes them off as "the real deal", the master of psychology, king of the hypnotists, master mentalist...

weird innit...

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Postby Mr_Grue » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:13

IAIN wrote:but if they are very vocal about "that lot are scam-artists, liars and crooks", and then do pretty much the same thing, but dress it up as hypnotic techniques, suggestion or whatever else - does that make them an entertainment-friendly crook?


I just don't think it is the same thing.

Whenever we interact with anyone at all we "dabble in people's lives". What's the solution?

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Postby IAIN » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:23

yay! i agree, no inverted genitalia for me...

yes, we DO dabble in one anothers lives, we can't help BUT do that just by talking and sharing things with one another...

i don't think there's a real, solid one size fits all answer...maybe we could be a tad more realistic before we label a whole raft of people as scam-artists and cheats? where's the percentiles and proof? maybe we could accept that because people dont fit nicely into boxes and labels at times, there's room for more understanding?

it is a hard question to answer 100% though...

but i do know that if i met you in a pub, and we were both wearing glasses - for me to constantly refer to you as "speccy-weccy four eyes" would be a bit rich...

and if you were to call me "four-eyes iain", then you'd be just as bad...

and then for you to get a tv show saying that im rubbish at looking at things and its all done with glasses and im fooling people into thinking i can see well cos I'm secretly wearing contact lenses...

only to find out that later, you've had corrective laser-eye surgery! the cheek of it!

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Postby Mr_Grue » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:26

Dang. I was looking forward to your mangina.

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Postby Harris » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:31

IAIN wrote:yay! i agree, no inverted genitalia for me...

yes, we DO dabble in one anothers lives, we can't help BUT do that just by talking and sharing things with one another...

i don't think there's a real, solid one size fits all answer...maybe we could be a tad more realistic before we label a whole raft of people as scam-artists and cheats? where's the percentiles and proof? maybe we could accept that because people dont fit nicely into boxes and labels at times, there's room for more understanding?

it is a hard question to answer 100% though...

but i do know that if i met you in a pub, and we were both wearing glasses - for me to constantly refer to you as "speccy-weccy four eyes" would be a bit rich...

and if you were to call me "four-eyes iain", then you'd be just as bad...

and then for you to get a tv show saying that im rubbish at looking at things and its all done with glasses and im fooling people into thinking i can see well cos I'm secretly wearing contact lenses...

only to find out that later, you've had corrective laser-eye surgery! the cheek of it!


Only one thing to say to that ...

Shoulda gone to specsavers !

Na the issue I kinda had with the show, was for those who are a bit loose in the brain department.

Of course its obvious we shouldnt break into houses or lay on a train track to make oursevlves feel empowered, but what of those with poor judgement at a particular time.
What message would this give them ? That by taking literal risks they too can feel good about themselves ? Yes i know its an odd chance of someone doing that, but IF anyone ever did, because of something I put out on TV id never forgive myself.

Derren himself has written of rather desperate letters sent to him by those who truly believe he has the psychological understanding to help them with their problems. People who will do and try anything to feel better .. what if they think this is that thing ?

Dunno, I just wasnt keen on that bit. I enjoyed it and particularly as a non magi type event, but hmmm

lol

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Postby themagicwand » Sep 22nd, '10, 10:54

Psychic bashing is an easy game for magicians to play, particularly when they have no actual idea what a psychic reader actually does.

Different mind-set, but I read a really sweet article on Bad Psychics once. One female member wrote a report about her "undercover mission" to attend to mediumship evening at a pub near her. She walked in and was shocked to find lots of people standing around, smiling, having a good time, and enjoying the atmosphere. I think she was expecting to find rows of grieving widows being forced to empty their purses into a bag marked "SWAG" by an nasty little man in a top hat and cape.

To quickly bring things back on topic - life isn't black & white. It's all grey. If you have a good heart and want to help people, that's great. Readers want to help people (honest, they do). Derren wants to help people. There really is no need for the baiting and the bashing. As a reader and a mentalist I think it demeans us all.

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Postby mark lewis » Sep 22nd, '10, 11:41

I shall now make a psychic prediction. Before very long all hell will break loose on this thread with rabid skeptics raging against the wickedness of psychics and shortly after Mandrake will lock the thread. It hasn't happened yet but give it time................................

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